New Defenders to be built but not from where you'd expect.

[Trevor]

I'm curious, what path would you have liked to see them take? More along the lines of what Jeep has done with the Wrangler (solid axles, removable top, body on frame....). If so, that's fair, I get that, I would have liked to have seen that as well, unfortunately that approach was taken off the table quite some time ago.

A little side story here from the Land Rover National Rally in Moab a few weeks ago. Land Rover had one of their driving instructors there this year, Jim West, with a 2018 Range Rover Sport. Jim was on the US team for the 1992 CT in Guyana so he is someone who has seen some tough terrain.

We were standing around the top of Hells Gate watching vehicles come up, and a large crowd was there as per usual. Jim, as a LR rep, was doing his job and going on about how great the new LR's are offroad. He went as far as stating quite emphatically that the new Disco is the best offroad vehicle they have ever built, bar none. My response was a loud and emphatic "Bull FUC&ING SH&T". And we proceeded to argue back and forth on the subject.

But what I found really interesting is that here is an ex-CT guy who still owns a D1 and loves it, going on about what LR's vision of offroading has essentially become. He's not saying that outright, but his argument on behalf of LR is saying basically that. The new Koolaid being drunk at LR espouses the concept that what they are doing is in fact the best of the best. They still see themselves as an offraoding giant and leader, and their vehicles are offroading trend setters. The reality that virtually no one uses them for that (for many reasons: capability, cost, repairability, etc) seems to not factor into this evaluation.

So there's a huge gap there between corporate hype, and reality. Upon reflecting on that discussion it became clear to me that the next Defender is already set in stone as a continuation of the new corporate model, with 0 ties to the old Defender. It's Land Rover as an offroading-lite company now. LR as a overlanding, rugged offroading brand that we knew and love died with the Defender, and won't be resurrected with the new Defender-Le femme. Those shots confirm that as I can see it appears to be a different body on the Disco or LR chasis.  Those aren't bad vehicles, but they're no Jeep, and that means LR is out of that space fully now.

[binch]

Once upon a time there was the Camel Trophy (1980 - 2000) which started off in 1980 with Heeps for the first year which were replaced with LR's for the next 18 years.   Eventually it began to evolve into something less off road related and more 'life style' related.  Climbing, swimming, wake boarding, etc was the new emphasis.   The truly adventurous CT series eventually 'evolved' into the G4 Challenge series (2003 to 2008) where the vehicles would drive into a city, the competitors would participate in  various atheletic activities like mountain biking, kayaking, rock-climbing, abseiling, trail running and rope work.   But it never really took off and died a death much like the dinosaurs before it......inhospitable financial environment this time.    Most interesting to note here...   The winner of the first G4 Challenge declined the first place prize of a new Range Rover.....instead it took TWO new defenders instead!!!  Doesn't that say something right there?!?!?

In the article earlier in this thread there was a quote which said:

"The one thing I can promise you is that the new Defender will do all that our customers expect of it, without being a copycat of what has gone before. It is a car for the modern world, and that means that it must move the game on if it is to be relevant."

I say...there's nothing wrong with copycat as imitation is the greatest form of flattery!  Some manufacturers have done quite well with this mentality.   But if doing all that its' customers expect is part of the deal I would like to hear what my expectation were.   Someone please tell me.....

I'll wait to see if any of these new defenders become Water Board trucks or will be towing JCB's or if the sheep trailers behind them, in the UK.   I'm pretty certain there will be lots in Chelsey or at the Bramham Horse show though.   ::)

[Red90]

The new Koolaid being drunk at LR espouses the concept that what they are doing is in fact the best of the best. They still see themselves as an offraoding giant and leader, and their vehicles are offroading trend setters. The reality that virtually no one uses them for that (for many reasons: capability, cost, repairability, etc) seems to not factor into this evaluation.

Yes.  This is the heart of the problem and why we will never see a proper off road vehicle from them.  Maybe the Ineos guys will do something reasonable and affordable.  Oh well, none it probably will ever affect my life.

[Trevor]

I'll wait to see if any of these new defenders become Water Board trucks or will be towing JCB's or if the sheep trailers behind them, in the UK.   I'm pretty certain there will be lots in Chelsey or at the Bramham Horse show though.   ::)

That does kinda get to the heart of it. Something like participation at the LR National Rally is a decent gauge too. The first one I attended almost a decade ago had a bit under 200 vehicles. 2012 was around 150. 2014 in around 100. 2018 would have been in the 75 ballpark.

Easter Jeep, on the other hand, attracts people in the 1,000's, growing yearly.

A few big differences of course...Jeep said "Hell Yeah! we want some of that market." LR said "Well, uhm, hmmmm, Posh, what do you think?"

But that LRNR trend does mirror the development trend. The 2004 D2 was the last solid axle, full frame rig that you could build and modify fully. It was the symbolic end for NA vehicles at least. The LR3's still have a good showing and are good rigs that have some build-out options. But without a real buy in from the corporation both in development of product and support of the community, the trend is pretty well set in one direction.

[Trevor]

Doubled up post somehow

[Matt H]

Is it just me or does the "new" Defender look a lot like the "old" LR4/LR3/Discovery?

[Rambler]

Is it just me or does the "new" Defender look a lot like the "old" LR4/LR3/Discovery?

That's what I was thinking.  Maybe a 'borrowed' shell to keep the motor press (and us) guessing  ;)

[Red90]

Yes. It is disguised to look like an LR4.   I'm sure under that has something with ties to the Defender.

[binch]

Yes. It is disguised to look like an LR4.   I'm sure under that has something with ties to the Defender.

Yeah, a label LOL

[Matt H]

I suppose ultimately the continued "Iconic" status of the Defender is up to us, and always has been really.
With the possible exceptions of the Camel Trophy and Darien Gap stunts, nothing Land Rover have done has ever significantly pushed the Defender and Series Land Rovers to greatness. Unless of course you count chronic underfunding and lack of development?
It's the end users that either embrace the concept and run with it or allow it to fade into obscurity that make the difference.

So if folks buy new Defenders and do cool stuff in them, make unique and interesting modifications to them and use them for important tasks to which they are particularly suited, then the Iconic status will remain.

If folks buy them and use them to do things you could have done in Range Rover...or Subaru...or Buick, then it's all over.
My 2c.

[Red90]

Just need Suzzyq to come back to North America.

https://www.damd.co.jp/products/suzuki/jimny_little-d/


;D

[Trevor]

Capable looking little rig!

[binch]

defenders......It will have an all aluminium, monocock chassis and come in 90, 110 and 130.   Chassis are being manufactured now from what I hear

But this little d is going to fill a void by the looks of it.... ;)

[Red90]

Hopefully they don't call it a Defender. I would not doubt that Tata drops Land Rover soon as they are bleeding like a stuck pig.  The Disco 5 has been a flop. Watch them pull the Defender replacement before it gets off the ground.

[Red90]

But this little d is going to fill a void by the looks of it.... ;)

Not for us unfortunately.   :'(