Alberta Land Rover Enthusiasts Club Forum
General => Non Technical Discussion => Topic started by: RossM on October 26, 2016, 06:50 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3193382/New-generation-Land-Rover-Defender-4x4-favoured-Queen-built-Slovakia.html
No more British Defenders. Now to be built in Slovakia!
Yes. That is why it is taking so long. They are waiting for the new plant to be constructed. They won't be Defenders as we know them. They are sharing the Range Rover Sport platform.
I suppose it makes sense....they will have less trouble selling on the EU market if they have a plant within the EU. Still want to see what they come up with though...... ;)
Taken from the Atlantic British website.
JLR Already Testing New Defender Prototypes
Dr. Ralf Speth, CEO of Jaguar Land Rover finally has something of substance to say about the long-awaited Defender replacement. “Its sensational.â€
The new Defender’s development has so far taken place in almost complete secrecy. There has been so little information coming from Solihull that many wondered if the company had anything substantial in the works. Now, Speth has finally come forward and thrown out a few morsels of information.
Defender Prototype
First, the vehicle’s development has reached a stage where prototype vehicles are being tested.
Speth says, “I have driven test mules already, and also tried the car against competitors, in on- and off-road environments.â€
Coming into 2016, JLR was having trouble reconciling competing concerns of the Defender’s replacement - the need for it to live up to its thoroughbred off-road heritage, comply with current environmental and safety regulations, and still generate profits for the company.
To accomplish that, Land Rover will need to build the Defender around components from other Land Rover vehicles. Which is well in keeping with how Land Rover has always operated. The first Defenders used the axles and suspension from the Range Rover line, which in turn shared parts with earlier Land Rovers.
In order to be compatible with Land Rover’s designs, the new Defender will need to employ the same lightweight aluminum chassis construction as used on the rest of the current Land Rover fleet. Fuel economy numbers will be helped by the lightweight chassis and surely the vehicles will employ Land Rovers new, more efficient engines, and a diesel engine variant will certainly be welcomed on these shores.
Also as with Defenders of the past, there is likely to be a number of Special Vehicle Options available. The ability to deliver rugged, purpose built offroaders for industry and agriculture will be a core element of the new models marketability beyond the recreational 4x4 set, and its ability to compete with other 4x4’s in its class such as Toyota Land Cruiser and Mercedes G-Class.
As one might expect if one has been inside of any Land Rover built in the last 10 years, the company expects that the vehicle will, in the words of Land Rover design chief Gerry McGovern. “be able to do everything it says on the tin.â€
McGovern also says that a SVR version would eventually be available, along with a luxury SVAutobiography to go with the SVA Range Rover offerings, and an SVX Model, drawing on the popularity of the hard-core off-road SVX versions created for the original Defender line.
To sum it all up, CEO Speth says, “We are working an authentic successor of the predecessor. I have to say it was one of my saddest moments in my career at Jaguar Land Rover, when we stopped the production line of this vehicle, because I just love it. But we will make a successor to this vehicle and you can be sure it will be even more capable. Nevertheless it will have the DNA of the current car.â€
Adds McGovern, “When you see the new Defender, people will know it’s worthy of carrying the badge.â€
Rumors are that the car will be available for the 2019 model year, and will likely be built alongside its brand mates at the Solihull factory.
Now there was a barrage of acronyms wasn't it LOL
The high next question will be the Diesel engine options and the north american sales strategy
May be it will be in place for my next car lease in 2018.
Defender = new body on an LR4 undercarriage methinks?
Already here. Supercat builds it's LV400 on the D4 platform. Even comes with machine gun mounts!
http://supacat.com/products/lrv400/
Quote from: Trevor on November 29, 2016, 11:51 AMDefender = new body on an LR4 undercarriage methinks?
Apparently not. All aluminum chassis as mentioned above. Probably the same basic platform as the RRS from the rumours I've heard.
Quote from: Red90 on November 29, 2016, 12:41 PM
Quote from: Trevor on November 29, 2016, 11:51 AMDefender = new body on an LR4 undercarriage methinks?
Apparently not. All aluminum chassis as mentioned above. Probably the same basic platform as the RRS from the rumours I've heard.
Ah, ok. I thought the LR 4 and RRS shared the same chassis, but I have not followed these units very closely of late.
Using an existing platform though and building off it is what I'd tend to expect from them with the Defender remake.
Quote from: Matt H on November 29, 2016, 12:28 PM
Already here. Supercat builds it's LV400 on the D4 platform. Even comes with machine gun mounts!
http://supacat.com/products/lrv400/
See, now that is thinking outside the box when it comes to recreational activities!
Quote from: Trevor on November 29, 2016, 01:22 PM
[Ah, ok. I thought the LR 4 and RRS shared the same chassis, but I have not followed these units very closely of late.
Using an existing platform though and building off it is what I'd tend to expect from them with the Defender remake.
All the new stuff including the RRS use all aluminum monocoques and are much lighter than the outgoing models. I would expect a Defenderish looking body with room for larger tires and smaller rims with a cheaper trim package. The rest will probably be the same.
Quote from: Red90 on November 29, 2016, 01:35 PM
Quote from: Trevor on November 29, 2016, 01:22 PM
[Ah, ok. I thought the LR 4 and RRS shared the same chassis, but I have not followed these units very closely of late.
Using an existing platform though and building off it is what I'd tend to expect from them with the Defender remake.
All the new stuff including the RRS use all aluminum monocoques and are much lighter than the outgoing models. I would expect a Defenderish looking body with room for larger tires and smaller rims with a cheaper trim package. The rest will probably be the same.
Yeah, that sounds about right.
Newest possible spy shots.... :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
https://www.autoblog.com/2017/12/01/land-rover-defender-swb-spy-shots/#slide-7169945
(https://s.aolcdn.com/dims-global/dims3/GLOB/legacy_thumbnail/916x515/quality/95/https://s.blogcdn.com/slideshows/images/slides/716/994/5/S7169945/slug/l/lrdefender-m13-kgp-ed-copy-1.jpg)
Ah, cool, they're building a Jeep Cherokee
At least those have a rear door a human could use.
I guess I was wrong earlier. There is no attempt to make the body have any lineage whatsoever. Looks like every other car they build.
Even to my untrained eye that looks like a photoshop image?
But meanwhile over at Fiat Chrysler...
http://www.fourwheeler.com/news/1711-first-look-2018-jeep-wrangler-rubicon/?wc_mid=4035:9920&wc_rid=4035:1509437&_wcsid=798D5BB8E4CA0068191AC4A6233ABDB96D77772BA120173F
very pretty >:(
I don't believe that's the actual body. The design of the rear wheel well is just too weird... how could they think the corner of the door should end essentially at the edge of the wheel well like that? It's got to just be chopped RR bodies to keep things under wraps.
Also, unless that rear door opens "suicide" style, there's no way anyone is getting in it...
Quote from: Trevor on December 01, 2017, 02:55 PM
Ah, cool, they're building a Jeep Cherokee
Albeit a squashed one, with rear doors designed for kids ::)
Quote from: DBrands on December 02, 2017, 10:53 AM
I don't believe that's the actual body. The design of the rear wheel well is just too weird...
Yes. It is explained in the article that it has a chopped Disco Sport body, just for testing.
This looks like a pass so far. When do the new LC's come out for a comparison test drive :) One rule of automotive business seems to be making something decent, and then really mucking it up several years later.
I hope the new defender will be as much of a truck as it used to be. The Jeep Wrangler seems to be evolving properly. Seems like I'm getting tired of the European ways of "this car suits every one" ways of thinking. I'm leaning toward a new 4Runner to replace my D2 in 5-7 years as a daily driver/travel truck.
So...what's been happening with INEOS of late then ::)
https://www.ineos.com/news/ineos-group/ineos-to-build-uncompromising-4-x-4-off-roader/ (https://www.ineos.com/news/ineos-group/ineos-to-build-uncompromising-4-x-4-off-roader/)
https://projektgrenadier.com/ (https://projektgrenadier.com/)
That photo of the "new" Defender isn't accurate. It's just a shell they're using. They're just testing the engineering side of the test mule but I suspect the new Defender's style design will be something between the DC100 and the new Discovery. McGovern already said the new Defender's style is going to be polarizing which is enough to tell me it's not going to look very much like the old Defender.
Whatever, I think LR has gone all mainstream and McGovern is just designing vehicles that look like RR's because he stumbled upon a design that appeals to the mass market.
I hope the new Defender retains a bit of the old heritage in it but not holding my breath and dealers don't really care as long as they can charge you through the nose for everything.
Roumor has it LR are now looking at "revealing" the new defender at the anniversary of the brand...so April this year?
Also Gerry McGovern has gone on record with descriptions of the new unit such as "premium ruggedness" and "the most futuristic and technologically advanced Land Rover yet". It will not have traditional off road styling cues like a snorkel or big off road lights, or even big Offroad tyres! ( err Gerry, they are not 'styling cues').
It is to be built on the current RR & D5 platform. Not in the UK. It will bear no resemblance to the old Defender/Series vehicles but will include a "nod" to its past...whatever that means.
He has also commented that it will be premium priced as well.
It's all a bit like watching England play in the World Cup. You know that they could be really great if they would just put a bit of effort in and pay attention to their competitors. But all they provide is one disappointing result after another.
So...it's going to be indistinguishable from all the new models LOL ;D
Looking on the bright side, our old Defenders are going to increase in value if the new ones are expensive (and crap).
Sounds like they will be expensive, Chinese (or Indian) built shit, and an on-road luxury vehicle.
Pretty much what I expected from Tata.
Slovakia. That is why it has been so long. They needed to get the plant built first.
Quote from: Red90 on January 06, 2018, 09:03 PM
Slovakia. That is why it has been so long. They needed to get the plant built first.
That's a step in the right direction.
Any idea if they are simply assembling them in Slovakia, or are they actually manufacturing them there as well?
I would imagine that like most manufacturers they source components worldwide and mearly assemble the vehicles in the factory. For better or worse the halcyon days of Land Rover being literally 'made in Birmingham' are over. However I believe the new ingen 4 cyl petrol and Diesel engines slated to be used are built in Liverpool.
On a side note, there is no need for Land Rover to assemble their products in China. The Chinese are already building a knock off "Land Wind" Evoke copy and I read the other day they are now going to build a Range Rover Sport copy at 1/3 the price! I'm sure whatever the new Defender looks like, if it sells and it's expensive, the Chinese will probably build a knock off version of that too.
There is a plant in Aycliffe industrial park that builds many of the components for the land rovers now. And they have plants in eastern Europe and Spain too. But they build components for many different manufacturers.
And now this!
http://www.fourwheeler.com/news/1801-mercedes-benz-teases-the-2019-g-class-before-its-debut/
The new G Wagen looks like it still gonna be a serious old school 4x4.
Just need MB to start selling stripped down, "low" cost versions over here. When I moved to Australia in 97, I came very close to getting one. After looking at everything around, it was a toss up between a (early 90s) Disco 1 and the G Wagen. I can't even remember why I finally settled on the Disco. I don't think there was much difference in price. If I had gone the other way, I'd be hanging out on MB forums today.
I've always been a fan of the G-wagon. I almost bought one as well about 10 years ago.
Is the Canadian military still buying them, or has the order been completed and its just care and feeding of existing units now?
And this!
http://www.fourwheeler.com/features/1801-2018-chevrolet-colorado-zr2-wins-four-wheeler-pickup-truck-of-the-year/
Seems like everyone got the "real off road trucks are cool" memo except Land Rover.
Quote from: Matt H on January 11, 2018, 06:40 PM
And this!
http://www.fourwheeler.com/features/1801-2018-chevrolet-colorado-zr2-wins-four-wheeler-pickup-truck-of-the-year/
Chev made a smart move and partnered with AEV (of Jeep Rubicon fame) with the intent of repeating what Jeep did with the Rubicon, and building a dedicated off-roader with serious kit options. Kinda like LR used to do with the Special Project division and the Camel Trophy...although now for LR its the Special Projects as-long-as-its-approved-by-Posh-Spice Division. So kinda different I guess.
I read an interview with Sergio Marchionne wherein he said Jeep was going to lead the way for the Fiat group in the years ahead. It is their flagship and where he is focusing their growth. They've got 20% of the SUV market, and gunning for a lot more. Jeep has been a pretty impressive thing to watch over the last decade as they have hands down the best stock off-roader on the market with the Rubicon, the most adaptable off-roader, the fastest SUV with the Hellcat powered Trackhawk, and then a wide range of run-around daily SUV's from small to mid sized economy up to luxury Grand Cherokee's on par with the top luxury SUV's.
...and 20 years ago they had what, a Cherokee, TJ/LJ and Grand Cherokee, and holding minimal market share.
It's a model LR could well have followed and done well with. They were certainly well positioned.
But I guess they are doing well as it is, certainly relative to where they were 15 years ago. They are just not building vehicles that have anything to do with their heritage. Heck, I don't think you can even get off-road kit from LR for their SUV's anymore can you? (example: I bought winch, bush bumper, front skid, and snorkel from LR for my '08 sport). Financially the company is doing better than ever before, but one has to wonder what might have been if they opened their eyes and followed Jeeps lead.
One more chance for a new Defender.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/original-land-rover-defender-returns-399bhp-v8
I agree with you. LR are not really sounding very serious about building anything but yet another expensive poser-rover for the brand conscious. Best in class? Probably, but the "class" they seem to want to compete in isn't exactly full anything I'd consider a 'proper''4WD or want to buy.
I did note however they have taken few lessons from the folks over at Jeep. The new D5 SVX is billed as the "most off road orientated Land Rover yet" has really snappy looking bright painted tow hook thingy's and trim accents just like the Cherokee Trailhawk.
I guess there is no need to bother with stuff like the Camel Trophy to prove your product when you can get away with painting shit orange and just telling everyone it's "best in class".
Wow....... at least the waiting until the D type jag was cold before they started play with the corpse! Who says you can't get blood from a stone!?!??!
The new 2019 North American Ford Ranger mid sized pickup has also just been shown. How long before there is a Raptor version and the new Bronco?
Certainly lots of new and interesting product on its way for off road enthusiasts. If nothing else it raises the bar.
Rumours are an unveiling on Monday, 70 years from the Series 1...
FINALLY!
They were supposed to have a worldwide live broadcast at 1 pm our time..... It is now 1:47 and nothing but excuses. I think they had to send it back to the factory for diagnostics.
Apparently it was a nothing event. https://www.autocar.co.uk/opinion/industry/steve-cropley-behind-scenes-land-rovers-70th-birthday-event
A good video if you need help going to sleep.
Perhaps they have decided to push back the release date by a couple of months...or years? Not like they haven't done it before. ::)
Even Suzuki gets it.... http://www.globalsuzuki.com/automobile/lineup/newjimny/index.html
Ladder frame, live axles both ends... $20000 to $25000.
Very nice. Good to have options when it comes to buying a new rig.
Someone pointed out they have the same dimensions as an 88" almost exactly and weighs fair but less.
Did they ever sell the Jimny here? I don't recall ever seeing one on Canadian roads. But I like price and the build criteria they are using.
Not the last generation. It was the same as the samurai before that.
There seems to be a few guys in Alberta passionate about the Suzuki Samari. Some seem to refit them with scrap VW Jetta diesel engines, making a poor-man's 90 out of it.
I drove a Mitsubishi/Dodge Raider in winter years ago, that was one of the closest vehicles to a 90. On the highway at least. Cold and slow.
I seem to think Suzuki dealerships closed here in Canada a few years ago. Maybe the most likely scenario to see the Jimny here is to have it rebadged by someone like Nissan or Dodge as a a scrambled rush answer to the upcoming Ford Bronco. Don't know what will come.
Here's some fresh fuel for the fire: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-2020-land-rover-defender-spied-testing-public-roads
It's starting to sound like they might actually happen. I can't wait until they're off-lease.
I think I can wait well after the offlease here. "Iconic" for sure.
I know I'm an outlier here, but I think it has promise. I really like our LR3, so a more utilitarian version of that would be perfect for our use. I think that's the crux - if you think of it as a more useful version of a modern Land Rover you'll be optimistic, if you looking for an ever so slightly updated version of a real defender or classic Land Rover you'll be disappointed.
I'm curious, what path would you have liked to see them take? More along the lines of what Jeep has done with the Wrangler (solid axles, removable top, body on frame....). If so, that's fair, I get that, I would have liked to have seen that as well, unfortunately that approach was taken off the table quite some time ago.
I suppose you'd have to define what a goal was for LR, and what a failure was.
To me, there was room for minor improvement and replacement on the defender design. If you liked the LR3, then perhaps you'd really like this new defender.
I seem to think they've gone as posh as expected here.
The (competing?) Toyota 70-series is still in production, and with no plans of cancelling it. Modular body on frame, (aside from cab) spring front, leaf rear, solid axles. If this is LR's answer to that, i'd have to call that a fail. :(
It wouldn't have been that hard to integrate their competitors design, taking the best of the two vehicles and making something better still. It seems the fellows in sales decided not to do that.
Pandering to the masses once again it seems. Perhaps i'm wrong, but I envision this model mostly exploring potholes in Toronto or Montreal.
Quote from: SpeedyJ on October 02, 2018, 12:18 PM
I'm curious, what path would you have liked to see them take? More along the lines of what Jeep has done with the Wrangler (solid axles, removable top, body on frame....). If so, that's fair, I get that, I would have liked to have seen that as well, unfortunately that approach was taken off the table quite some time ago.
A little side story here from the Land Rover National Rally in Moab a few weeks ago. Land Rover had one of their driving instructors there this year, Jim West, with a 2018 Range Rover Sport. Jim was on the US team for the 1992 CT in Guyana so he is someone who has seen some tough terrain.
We were standing around the top of Hells Gate watching vehicles come up, and a large crowd was there as per usual. Jim, as a LR rep, was doing his job and going on about how great the new LR's are offroad. He went as far as stating quite emphatically that the new Disco is the best offroad vehicle they have ever built, bar none. My response was a loud and emphatic "Bull FUC&ING SH&T". And we proceeded to argue back and forth on the subject.
But what I found really interesting is that here is an ex-CT guy who still owns a D1 and loves it, going on about what LR's vision of offroading has essentially become. He's not saying that outright, but his argument on behalf of LR is saying basically that. The new Koolaid being drunk at LR espouses the concept that what they are doing is in fact the best of the best. They still see themselves as an offraoding giant and leader, and their vehicles are offroading trend setters. The reality that virtually no one uses them for that (for many reasons: capability, cost, repairability, etc) seems to not factor into this evaluation.
So there's a huge gap there between corporate hype, and reality. Upon reflecting on that discussion it became clear to me that the next Defender is already set in stone as a continuation of the new corporate model, with 0 ties to the old Defender. It's Land Rover as an offroading-lite company now. LR as a overlanding, rugged offroading brand that we knew and love died with the Defender, and won't be resurrected with the new Defender-Le femme. Those shots confirm that as I can see it appears to be a different body on the Disco or LR chasis. Those aren't bad vehicles, but they're no Jeep, and that means LR is out of that space fully now.
Once upon a time there was the Camel Trophy (1980 - 2000) which started off in 1980 with Heeps for the first year which were replaced with LR's for the next 18 years. Eventually it began to evolve into something less off road related and more 'life style' related. Climbing, swimming, wake boarding, etc was the new emphasis. The truly adventurous CT series eventually 'evolved' into the G4 Challenge series (2003 to 2008) where the vehicles would drive into a city, the competitors would participate in various atheletic activities like mountain biking, kayaking, rock-climbing, abseiling, trail running and rope work. But it never really took off and died a death much like the dinosaurs before it......inhospitable financial environment this time. Most interesting to note here... The winner of the first G4 Challenge declined the first place prize of a new Range Rover.....instead it took TWO new defenders instead!!! Doesn't that say something right there?!?!?
In the article earlier in this thread there was a quote which said:
"The one thing I can promise you is that the new Defender will do all that our customers expect of it, without being a copycat of what has gone before. It is a car for the modern world, and that means that it must move the game on if it is to be relevant."
I say...there's nothing wrong with copycat as imitation is the greatest form of flattery! Some manufacturers have done quite well with this mentality. But if doing all that its' customers expect is part of the deal I would like to hear what my expectation were. Someone please tell me.....
I'll wait to see if any of these new defenders become Water Board trucks or will be towing JCB's or if the sheep trailers behind them, in the UK. I'm pretty certain there will be lots in Chelsey or at the Bramham Horse show though. ::)
Quote from: Trevor on October 03, 2018, 10:08 AM
The new Koolaid being drunk at LR espouses the concept that what they are doing is in fact the best of the best. They still see themselves as an offraoding giant and leader, and their vehicles are offroading trend setters. The reality that virtually no one uses them for that (for many reasons: capability, cost, repairability, etc) seems to not factor into this evaluation.
Yes. This is the heart of the problem and why we will never see a proper off road vehicle from them. Maybe the Ineos guys will do something reasonable and affordable. Oh well, none it probably will ever affect my life.
Quote from: binch on October 03, 2018, 05:18 PM
I'll wait to see if any of these new defenders become Water Board trucks or will be towing JCB's or if the sheep trailers behind them, in the UK. I'm pretty certain there will be lots in Chelsey or at the Bramham Horse show though. ::)
That does kinda get to the heart of it. Something like participation at the LR National Rally is a decent gauge too. The first one I attended almost a decade ago had a bit under 200 vehicles. 2012 was around 150. 2014 in around 100. 2018 would have been in the 75 ballpark.
Easter Jeep, on the other hand, attracts people in the 1,000's, growing yearly.
A few big differences of course...Jeep said "Hell Yeah! we want some of that market." LR said "Well, uhm, hmmmm, Posh, what do you think?"
But that LRNR trend does mirror the development trend. The 2004 D2 was the last solid axle, full frame rig that you could build and modify fully. It was the symbolic end for NA vehicles at least. The LR3's still have a good showing and are good rigs that have some build-out options. But without a real buy in from the corporation both in development of product and support of the community, the trend is pretty well set in one direction.
Doubled up post somehow
Is it just me or does the "new" Defender look a lot like the "old" LR4/LR3/Discovery?
Quote from: Matt H on October 04, 2018, 06:35 PM
Is it just me or does the "new" Defender look a lot like the "old" LR4/LR3/Discovery?
That's what I was thinking. Maybe a 'borrowed' shell to keep the motor press (and us) guessing ;)
Yes. It is disguised to look like an LR4. I'm sure under that has something with ties to the Defender.
Quote from: Red90 on October 04, 2018, 08:49 PM
Yes. It is disguised to look like an LR4. I'm sure under that has something with ties to the Defender.
Yeah, a label LOL
I suppose ultimately the continued "Iconic" status of the Defender is up to us, and always has been really.
With the possible exceptions of the Camel Trophy and Darien Gap stunts, nothing Land Rover have done has ever significantly pushed the Defender and Series Land Rovers to greatness. Unless of course you count chronic underfunding and lack of development?
It's the end users that either embrace the concept and run with it or allow it to fade into obscurity that make the difference.
So if folks buy new Defenders and do cool stuff in them, make unique and interesting modifications to them and use them for important tasks to which they are particularly suited, then the Iconic status will remain.
If folks buy them and use them to do things you could have done in Range Rover...or Subaru...or Buick, then it's all over.
My 2c.
Just need Suzzyq to come back to North America.
https://www.damd.co.jp/products/suzuki/jimny_little-d/
(https://www.damd.co.jp/products/suzuki/jimny_little-d/images/01.jpg)
;D
Capable looking little rig!
defenders......It will have an all aluminium, monocock chassis and come in 90, 110 and 130. Chassis are being manufactured now from what I hear
But this little d is going to fill a void by the looks of it.... ;)
Hopefully they don't call it a Defender. I would not doubt that Tata drops Land Rover soon as they are bleeding like a stuck pig. The Disco 5 has been a flop. Watch them pull the Defender replacement before it gets off the ground.
Quote from: binch on November 19, 2018, 03:55 PMBut this little d is going to fill a void by the looks of it.... ;)
Not for us unfortunately. :'(
Funny thing, I was looking for a Suzuki to be my first 4x4 when I was a teenager but my Dad lead me to Land Rover. Now that new Suzuki might be a better Land Rover.
Tata doesn't like to sell of companies once they've bought them though. Even here in the UK I'm not seeing as many of the newer discos...but I'm not sure if that's because I don't notice them or they just arent there. The bigger disco 3's and 4's are blendiful as are the older RRS's . But RRE's appear to be doing well here.
Quote from: binch on November 20, 2018, 01:28 AMTata doesn't like to sell of companies once they've bought them though.
When they start costing you $50 million a month, what "you like" tends to change. They have created a bunch of vehicles that look the same and look no different than every other SUV on the market. On top of that they have nearly the worst reliability rating in the world. It is not a formula that leads to success.
The newest camo shots make it look very similar to the Disco 4 without the roof step. It is very well confirmed that it will be the same platform as the Disco 5 and RRS. We can assume identical suspension and drivetrain with a more Defenderish body and Disco 5 prices.
Land Rover have priced many of us out of the market. My wife and I were in the dealership the other week and the cheapest unit was a Discovery sport at $70+K. It is similar to a Kia that costs $40K. Only the Kia has more options.
The unjustifiable high price has no value in a vehicle that is essentially a Freelander that used to sell for much less.
Quote from: Matt H on November 20, 2018, 10:38 AM
Land Rover have priced many of us out of the market. My wife and I were in the dealership the other week and the cheapest unit was a Discovery sport at $70+K. It is similar to a Kia that costs $40K. Only the Kia has more options.
The unjustifiable high price has no value in a vehicle that is essentially a Freelander that used to sell for much less.
Yes, spot on. You and John nailed it.
Contemplating buying a LR now is extremely easy imo, I'm done before I start because they really do not have anything of value or that is unique. Tata has certainly not helped the company at all imo. Whether they or not they are entirely to blame is up for debate, but getting out from under them probably isn't bad.
There was a discussion on our FB page on the recent state of Land Rover and I was surprised at how many people were saying that the reliability was so poor. I could not imagine spending $70000+ on a vehicle and having it break down when new. This was one comment.
QuoteI have had my Discovery Sport for 1.5 years and have lost count of it visits to the service department. Totally regret it's purchase.
https://www.jdpower.com/cars/ratings/dependability
Land Rover is dead last in 2018
https://www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer
36 out of 40 (in the UK).
Quote from: Trevor on November 20, 2018, 11:15 AMWhether they or not they are entirely to blame is up for debate, but getting out from under them probably isn't bad.
McGovern. Let's get realistic. The company does not need a head designer that has never been off road and has no interest in off roading. I'd be surprised if he has ever left a city in his life.
Quote from: Red90 on November 20, 2018, 11:30 AM
There was a discussion on our FB page on the recent state of Land Rover and I was surprised at how many people were saying that the reliability was so poor. I could not imagine spending $70000+ on a vehicle and having it break down when new. This was one comment.
QuoteI have had my Discovery Sport for 1.5 years and have lost count of it visits to the service department. Totally regret it's purchase.
https://www.jdpower.com/cars/ratings/dependability
Land Rover is dead last in 2018
https://www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer
36 out of 40 (in the UK).
Hehe, well that's certainly not good.
I will say that when I had my RRS I had really good luck with it insofar as maintenance was concerned. Mind you that was in 2008 and mine was built under Ford's ownership. I know when Ford sold it they took all their QC folks with them, so what little (if any) ground LR gained from Ford's QC policies, was undoubtedly lost.
Overall LR has never been a well built product. That is less significant when its basically an inexpensive tractor that is going to be used out on the farm or running around the countryside. And it can be worked on and repaired. No one wants to spend money on unreliable and poorly made products mind you. But it's an entirely different matter when you're spending in the 6 figure range for something that has quality/reliability issues.
This was Mark's comment.
QuoteThe new ones are junk. Even if the old ones were junk, at least a guy who knew a little about fixing stuff could get them going again on the side of the road!
Imagine buying this and then breaking down...
[ This attachment cannot be displayed inline in 'Print Page' view ]
Yeah, that's it in a nutshell. That's an insane price for an LR. Completely insane.
...and why I don't really support LR. They have gone a different path and left me behind. Their choice. I'm good with that.
As to my earlier statement about it's what the people will actually do in the new Defender that will make the difference........
If LR's current pricing strategy is anything to go by, looks like all most folks will be doing at first is making payments!
But hey, a new JL Wrangler Rubicon will cost a guy close to $60K. Same deal for loaded Toyota 4 Runner or Tacoma. A new One Ton Pickup can cost over $100K these days and the big three sell loads of them.
Vehicle manufactures make the majority of their income from financing so there is little incentive to build vehicles people can actually afford.
I'm sure regular people will off road the new Defenders eventally. I'm also sure they will be good in the rough stuff too. It may just take ten years for them to become affordable enough to be used in such a way.
Quote from: Matt H on November 21, 2018, 12:02 AM
I'm sure regular people will off road the new Defenders eventally. I'm also sure they will be good in the rough stuff too. It may just take ten years for them to become affordable enough to be used in such a way.
I would not be so sure. The problem with almost all new vehicles is that they are complex and after 10 to 15 years, all of those fancy bits start to fail and they are very expensive to replace or repair, even if the parts still exist. By that time, the technology will be very out of date and no longer supported. The end result is that repairs well exceed the vehicle value and they are scrapped. It won't be like a traditional truck, where, with a lot of labour and a few parts, you will be able to get it running. It is the era of the disposable car.
I suppose if you are in a situation where you are still making payments on a car that requires expensive repairs out of the warranty period it won't take long before it gets traded in on a new unit.
Quote from: Red90 on November 20, 2018, 07:01 AM
When they start costing you $50 million a month, what "you like" tends to change. They have created a bunch of vehicles that look the same and look no different than every other SUV on the market. On top of that they have nearly the worst reliability rating in the world. It is not a formula that leads to success.
Can't argue that logic
Quote from: Matt H on November 21, 2018, 12:02 AM
As to my earlier statement about it's what the people will actually do in the new Defender that will make the difference........
If LR's current pricing strategy is anything to go by, looks like all most folks will be doing at first is making payments!
I struggle with that position simply because I don't think it's about the end user at all making a brand. That is the role of the company itself. They decide what they want to be, what they want people to do with their widget, and they then build on that to further the brand.
LR at one time got that....they REALLY got that. It was what made them quite unique in the automobile space. They really were the company that forced the "lifestyle" concept long before anyone knew that was a thing.
Therein lay the rub. The last 10 years have seen a complete abandonment of those core principles and a complete reshaping of the company into a luxury only, mall crawling brand. Sure, they still try to leverage their past for a "coolness" factor, and why wouldn't they. That's just smart marketing.
In the end they still have to make something that represents that off-roading work-a-day market if they want to have any credibility in the space....basically they need to go back to their roots and build a Jeep Wrangler. And they make nothing of that sort now, or even anything remotely close.
The fact of the matter is no matter how hard one tries, the end user can never make LR what it does not want to be, and they most certainly do not want to be what they once were.
I saw my first new Quigley Ford Transit 4x4 van here at a jobsite. Big tires, ample space inside for camping, can sleep several. Diesel engine maybe?? Times, they are changing..
I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens if it ever arrives?
I think the 'Defender' nameplate has too strong a following to be entirely abandoned by enthusiasts overnight. Folks build up first generation Freelanders for crying out loud.
Will it be the same as before? Likely not, but I don't think everyone will immediately turn their back on the model either. After all it took twenty years and four generations for JLR to totally ruin the Discovery! Even longer for the Range Rover!!
Personally I don't think any new vehicle from any manufacture (including Jeep) is really any better today than it was twenty years ago. Certainly not for the amount of money they charge for one.
My 2c.
Quote from: Matt H on November 23, 2018, 12:03 AM
Personally I don't think any new vehicle from any manufacture (including Jeep) is really any better today than it was twenty years ago. Certainly not for the amount of money they charge for one.
My 2c.
It's about what they build out of the box, and then what you can customize after the fact imo. That's where Jeeps still excel. Out of the box a Rubicon eats all comers lunch. Indeed, there is a cost to it and it does seem high at 60k, but that's more a result of the broad devaluation of currencies generally. Today's 60k is yesterday's 30k. You get less by spending more, and this trend will continue until our fiat currencies collapse entirely. It's always been that way, and always will be that way. That's just a function of printed money by fiat. It's the relative values that are important for our purposes (what does a LR Discovery cost relative to one of its direct competitors?)
That all having been said, when you can easily customize a rig, that's when the 4x4/overlanding/lifestyle market really opens up I think. Again, Jeep saw this in spades with the Rubicon, and several of their 4x4 "light" models, and made the right after-market partnerships to give their customers ample crack to feed their habits. Tata could have done the same thing with the Defender because you had an iconic 4 x 4 that was infinitely tweakable. But of course they though the more prudent move was to cancel the concept entirely.
I think the only bright spot in this dark tunnel that LR has gone down is the faint hope that the brand does get sold, and it is bought by someone/something which has a clue. Tata doesn't. The only hope for LR becoming LR again is that there is a next owner, and that they actually understand the brand. A real long shot obviously.
I don't disagree, the point I was driving at was I'd rather buy a twenty year old TJ Wrangler than a new JL or Series 1 Discovery than a New Discovery 5. Not all advances are progress.
I'm not sure what LR will do to support or not support a New Defender. But I believe folks will still try to build them up. How many or for how long is the question?
Look at the FJ cruiser. Despite being crap in every way and ultimately failing as a model line, initially lots of Toyota guys still tried to build them up because of the halo of the classic FJ's of the past.
I'm thinking the same will happen with the Defender. How long that honeymoon lasts depends on the afore mentioned "tweekability" of the new unit.
Of course I could be totally wrong and the new Defender will be as shit as we all fear and nobody will buy it, build it or even want it! Ho knows??
That's a really good point Matt. There may be some support for it from the die-hards. As you rightly note though, it'll all depend how far down (or not) the shit scale it ultimately is. When it's all said and done, there's no point trying to teach a pig to sing; it's a waste of your time and it just annoys the pig.
https://www.cnn.com/videos/cars/2018/11/28/jeep-gladiator-unveiled.cnn/video/playlists/business-drive-cars/
Well that screws things up.... I want the Jeep and none of the available offerings from rover, this and Trump force me to conclude the end times are upon us.
Love the Name....reminds me of the scene from Monty Python's life of Brian where Ceasar is telling off a guard: "With wotten behaviour wike that you wiww soon find yoursewf in gwadiatior schoow!!!
Quote from: headdamage on November 28, 2018, 05:30 PM
Well that screws things up.... I want the Jeep and none of the available offerings from rover, this and Trump force me to conclude the end times are upon us.
Yeah, that's a pretty decent looking rig. A lot like a Defender pickup of old but roomier, more stable, and more comfortable.
...and don't worry about the end of times, Trump will save you...He's like a Super-Prez, striking down libtards with a single blow ;->
New spy shots of the 110.
https://www.motor1.com/news/286490/land-rover-defender-spied-new-body/
[ This attachment cannot be displayed inline in 'Print Page' view ]
hmm, that doesn't look much different than some of their current offerings.
A D5 with a D4 body. The ground clearance is horrible looking at the side shots. Has anyone looked at how the D5 has coolers directly in front of both front wheels? :o
It certainly represents nothing "Defenderish"....like nothing whatsoever.
The cheap rubber bonnet hold downs (part of the camo I think) look to be the most sensible parts on it. The front side windows do look slightly roverish in their shape.
LOL I've seen some of their prototype vehicles in the Dunfold collection and all I can say from these pics is "the thing has four wheels". hahahah
They are doing their damnedest to keep this final design underwraps (no pun indended), but from what I do know is they are talking 90", 110" and 130" still. On aluminium monocoque platform. But I don't expect to see the real macoy until they unveil it for 2020.
I'm courious....but being a pessimist at heart I'm also very apprehensive too! ::)
Oh, 2020 is the target date? I didn't realize it was that far out.
Quote from: Trevor on December 06, 2018, 09:24 PM
Oh, 2020 is the target date? I didn't realize it was that far out.
2020 is probably only six to seven months in the future from a car model introduction perspective.
How are we reading that? I was reading Bill's comment as 2020 being when they were going to have the new brand ready for the public to view.
Or is it 2020 is release year (i.e. they will be rolling off the lines in mid-2019)?
I read it to mean 2020 model year. Usually they unveil the model year in the middle of the previous year.
ok, yes, that is much sooner then. What we're seeing is probably at least somewhat representative of the end product.
yeah, like john says....2020 model year, so will be released in 19. Probably at that big car show in france.....
sorry about the confusion. ;)
Latest.
New update: https://www.roversmagazine.com/2018/12/all-new-defender-coming-to-america-in-2020/ (https://www.roversmagazine.com/2018/12/all-new-defender-coming-to-america-in-2020/)
It's officially official, it's coming to the USA AND Canada.
Looking through the pics, I think the best approach is to think of this as what the Discovery 5 should have been. If you think of it in those terms you'll:
A. Be happy about the new Disco.
B. Still be disappointed by the new Defender.
By my calculations, that's one less disappointment then our current situation.
Quote from: SpeedyJ on December 27, 2018, 09:11 AM
New update: https://www.roversmagazine.com/2018/12/all-new-defender-coming-to-america-in-2020/ (https://www.roversmagazine.com/2018/12/all-new-defender-coming-to-america-in-2020/)
It's officially official, it's coming to the USA AND Canada.
Looking through the pics, I think the best approach is to think of this as what the Discovery 5 should have been. If you think of it in those terms you'll:
A. Be happy about the new Disco.
B. Still be disappointed by the new Defender.
By my calculations, that's one less disappointment then our current situation.
Hehehe, that's a good way of looking at it.
In their announcement they stated "On behalf of Land Rover and our retailers, we are proud to announce the voices of American and Canadian customers has been heard:....."
I remember the discussion we had a with LR NA at the Solihul society's moab run, with Trevor, Jeffrey, Emad, Matt and Abdu..... I don't think that guy was listening to anything the landy people were saying LOL
But talk is cheap!!!! Let's see what they offer us...... 8)
Quote from: binch on December 27, 2018, 01:03 PM
In their announcement they stated "On behalf of Land Rover and our retailers, we are proud to announce the voices of American and Canadian customers has been heard:....."
I remember the discussion we had a with LR NA at the Solihul society's moab run, with Trevor, Jeffrey, Emad, Matt and Abdu..... I don't think that guy was listening to anything the landy people were saying LOL
Rofl...quite true!
I am interested to see the tag price for it.
Quote from: B-Red on December 27, 2018, 02:48 PM
I am interested to see the tag price for it.
I'm guessing it's an LR4 with a slightly different body, probably incorporating the less fancy interior package of the LR3. So figure US$50k --> 60k starting range?
I'm sure you will be able to fancy it up as well with lots of bling, so where the top end of the range is would be anyone's guess.
That's my guess anywhooo.
Quote from: B-Red on December 27, 2018, 02:48 PM
I am interested to see the tag price for it.
If the rest of the line up is anything to go by....$70.000!
I would guess there will be a basic option on coils priced a little lower than the Disco. But we may not get that one here. The lowest priced Disco is $69000.
Towards the end of the video it shows the underside of the new vehicle looking very flat, that's a positive. But I feel like I'm trying too hard to find reasons to like it?
I hear the phrase "most capable Land Rover ever" used often in association with this unit. They had better become more serious about proving it because the current footage of the disguised ND tackling gravel roads and 6" of water on low profile street tyres is ridiculous.
Back in the old days, when Land Rover (and other manufacturers) built a new vehicle and boasted about its prowess they took it racing, attempted speed and endurance records, sponsored expeditions and events like the CT and basically put their money where there mouth was.
I would like to be shown what it can do, not told. And I'm not interested in stunts like towing a train or driving a purpose built track made from scaffolding or anything it's able to achieve on street tyres.
Flat is bad, IMO. It means 100% of the vehicle is at the lowest level. With a traditional LR, the body is up high and making it harder to land on the body. The axles are the only low point and they go up with the wheels.
Well yes, I agree that it's all a bit too low down. But at least it's not got a transfer case or other drivetrain components hanging down below the "frame" rails like other 4wd I could mention.
I'm sure all the easily damaged bits are just beyond the plastic skid plates. Have you seen a Disco 5? The oil coolers are behind the front bumper directly in front of the tires. Nobody that has ever been off road would design it that way.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181228/c194d1b368e19ad6d3611e8c70770624.jpg)
So, we know the D5 is the base platform for the ND. And we have seen the huge mesh covered intakes in the bumper area on the pre production units.
Then it would reasonably follow the ND will likely have the same cooler location? Lovely. ::)
Also, I'm pretty sure Mr McGovern has never been off road so that would explain a few things about...everything he has designed for Land Rover.
Holy crap that in an ugly dash....
(https://images.carscoops.com/2019/02/bbfbdf14-land-rover-defender-interior-leak.jpg)
we need another camel trophy to show what it can do....or not do. That shift position looks like a fancy RAV 4 from a few years back.
Fortunately they labelled the pedals.
That is one ugly set up :(
Priceless. That looks like an iconic F-150 steering wheel to me. I'm sure this one's a performer. You'll have your infotainment system to enjoy while you polish the plastic.
The section above the gear shift panel, and below the dashboard, reminds me of the old Defender. They have that gap that runs the width of the passenger side that stuff is just kinda fit into the gap as filler. Reminds me a bit of that.
Quote from: Trevor on February 15, 2019, 07:34 AM
The section above the gear shift panel, and below the dashboard, reminds me of the old Defender. They have that gap that runs the width of the passenger side that stuff is just kinda fit into the gap as filler. Reminds me a bit of that.
Yes, that is what they were going for... The original Defender dash is ugly as hell as well. But it served a function. It was open so that the fresh air vents could work. And it was easy to work on and took up little space. This one is just ugly with no purpose being served. They HVAC vents are useless. Space is completely wasted. Maybe it is just a joke gimmick from Land Rover. It is obviously purposely leaked. The photo is professional as it is properly lit. The public threat of legal again is not something that would be done if it was a real leak.
That dash is the first thing I've seen from them that I don't dislike on sight.
There doesn't seem to be a lot of room for a manual gear stick. I hope it's not just auto boxes they plan to sell.
I would very much doubt they will do a manual. It is too difficult to integrate all of the self driving features with a manual.
That is perhaps the deciding factor in my no longer wanting to buy a new land rover. It's so hard to find a standard here in any vehicle >:( :'(
Quote from: Red90 on February 14, 2019, 05:08 PM
Fortunately they labelled the pedals.
Lol. Yes, I thought that was funny too.
I heard it from a little sparrow that the L663 will start production in just a few weeks time 8)
There is a theory floating around the inter-webs that the much photographed camouflaged unit that we all think is the disguised New Defender is actually a red herring. Built on purpose by Land Rover on an LR4 platform to fool us all.
Like all things internet, take from it what you will.
Quote from: Matt H on March 16, 2019, 11:36 AM
There is a theory floating around the inter-webs that the much photographed camouflaged unit that we all think is the disguised New Defender is actually a red herring. Built on purpose by Land Rover on an LR4 platform to fool us all.
Like all things internet, take from it what you will.
That theory comes from you friend Andrew St Pierre White.
Look up Tata Sumo... it is their more basic 4x4 and might have some defender tech in it.
That's been around for 20 years. IFS, rear leaf springs. It does not even appear to have low range. Not really Defender league and obviously never suitable for sale here. The Jimny is a lot better. Live axle, multi-link coil springs front and rear. 36:1 in low range, 88" wheelbase, 1100 kg curb weight.
Some more useful testing underway.
New Land Rover Defender spotted testing at the Nurburgring
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-land-rover-defender-2019
Sweet! Nice 20" rims with skinny banana peal tires! I remember those from my RRS, what a joy when in sand or mud!
Hopefully finding 18" rims (and actually fitting them) won't be nearly the chore it was for the RRS. I had to reverse the counter-weight on the brake caliper and grind 1/8 of it off to get the rims around those big Brembo brakes.
Heheh, well, that will be someone else's problem, I don't see myself in the market for a new Defender.
Looks like Ford's revived Bronco family is more in line with what most folks would have liked to have seen with the New Defender.
http://www.fourwheeler.com/news/1903-ford-dealers-2021-bronco-will-get-removable-doors-and-roof/
I wonder If they will be sized between the bronco I and bronco II..?
Kinda look similar to one of the jeeps...that was imitating the BMW a few years back 8)
It does appear they are going after some of Jeeps (huge) market share. Good to see.
20" rims, minimum....
hehe, nice covert ops on that guys' part.
hmmmmmmm >:(
Interesting. Shame there was no footage of it actually on the trail.
QuoteIt should have been possible to have planned out a series of vehicles across Range Rover, Discovery, Land Rover, and Jaguar which were unique in their own right and true to their brand values.
But if you consider Land Rover there isn't even a vehicle to be had, with the discontinuation of the iconic Defender and alienation of the customers from that previously important market segment.
If you look at the Discovery 5 you can even say that has been Range Roverised to an extent that previous Discovery owners won't touch one with a barge pole.
QuoteThe problems are significant including: competing products which cannibalise sales from within JLR and therefore do not deliver sufficient growth, over emphasis on vehicle styling and marketing, lack of robust product development, ever decreasing vehicle profit margins, a worldwide manufacturing strategy which now appears to lack any coherency.
And this is the big one: quality and reliability where JLR are at the bottom of most ratings and if you look on any social media site the comments are truly shocking.
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jlr-diesel-brexit-16073109?fbclid=IwAR0SoWcLLq2U7CSK5OjeqpIhnbchkw2Xf5yk7zQnj4ZVD8D9ov6UNOELQVw
That's a good article. Lots of interesting perspectives.
Some trail shots in Moab.
So I feel like I need to ask the question....Is Land Rover's apparent refusal to use a proper off road tyres on anything it builds and use low profile street tyres on 20" rims some kind self inflicted handicap?
By doing so are they attempting to highlight the engineered ability of their products without the perceived influence of a decent off road tread?
Way way of saying 'I'm such a good boxer, I'll fight Muhammad Ali with one arm tied behind my back'?
I'm sure the boffins at LR know much more about off-roading than I will ever hope to learn but they appear to have skipped lesson one.
1, PUT SOME PROPER BLOODY TYRES ON IT YOU IDIOT!
And lesson two.
2, PUT SOME PROPER SIZED WHEELS ON IT YOU IDIOT!
And lesson three.
3, AIR DOWN YOUR PROPER BLOODY TYRES ON YOUR PROPER BLOODY WHEELS YOU IDIOT!
Pretty much. This is why they are doing things like Moab. The traction control systems work well on high traction surfaces and you can get by with the street tires. Get them on low traction surfaces and the TC robs all the power. The tires and their needed pressure become useless.
Quote from: Red90 on April 18, 2019, 11:35 AM
Pretty much. This is why they are doing things like Moab. The traction control systems work well on high traction surfaces and you can get by with the street tires. Get them on low traction surfaces and the TC robs all the power. The tires and their needed pressure become useless.
Yes, Moab is a great multiplier for TS systems. Any vehicle will exceed your expectations in Moab. Driving on sandpaper tends to do that.
In any other environment the skinny tires show their limitations pretty quick.
Well, I'm not really interested in imagining how great their products could be with a proper wheel and tyre package.
And I'm not very interested in seeing it do stuff on street tyres that nearly all modern SUVs could do.
If LR are going to claim it's the best (and you know they will charge accordingly) then I'd better start seeing it do some more impressive stuff that, no question, no other off road centric road going vehicle could do if they expect a sale out of me.
And I'm not talking about low/zero operator input and automation or setting lap records at the Nurburgring either!
The appeal of a new $70,000 + car that automatically drives itself over obstacles a $500 thirty year old Disco could do with any half decent driver behind the wheel is precisely zero.
You are not their target buyer, Matt. They really have no desire to expand their customer base. It will be a Disco 5 that looks more like a Defender. That will appeal to some, only because every SUV sold today looks the same. The absolutely bottom level of boring automotive design in 2019 makes anything slightly different look appealing.
Quote from: Matt H on April 18, 2019, 05:07 PM
If LR are going to claim it's the best (and you know they will charge accordingly) then I'd better start seeing it do some more impressive stuff that, no question, no other off road centric road going vehicle could do if they expect a sale out of me.
The new Defender looks like it will rank right up there with...a Crown Vic...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFwPXEeJ3aI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFwPXEeJ3aI)
I think it's time for another camel trophy ;D And not the Terra del Fuego one either.... The talking is over now, time for LR to "walk the walk" ;)
My wife and I could be their target market if they put a bit of effort into it. As it stands I see nothing very different from our current LR4 that would make us want trade it in on a new Defender.
I agree Bill. It's time for Land Rover to show their hand.
September 2019 is the official reveal date for New Defender!
hmmmmm...would they reveal it at the "Wheels event" in Edmonton???? ::)
From Land Rover USA. Possibly what it will actually look like.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bw22yILgaQR/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1m2qftumfpd38
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190430/6798fafbb68864334dbdaf62181e1e4b.jpg)
So in light of that picture, is there any difference between current rover models other than the names?
The back is squared off and the body sticks out below the doors. I think that is the complete plan for styling that looks back to Land Rovers. If you showed this picture without the badging to any normal person that is familiar with real Land Rovers, they would never guess it is mean to be one.
Yeah, so it's an LR3/4 with a spare wheel on the back. ??? Now I think the LR3/4 are great units as a evolved Discovery family SUV platform, but they ain't no Defender.
Thank goodness they took the time to "really get it right". I dread to think of what they might have come up with had they rushed it. ::)
Suddenly the much hated DC100 concept from 2011 isn't looking so bad....
Quote from: Matt H on April 30, 2019, 08:22 PM
Suddenly the much hated DC100 concept from 2011 isn't looking so bad....
You wash your mouth out with soap young man!!!!!!! It doesn't matter what the pile looks like....if it's attracting lots of flies it's probably shiite!
;D
Bwhaahaha! You're right Bill. I shall stand in the corner, face the wall and think about what I've said lol. ;D
This whole New Defender thing has become like a twisted game of 'would you rather'.
More pics of the New Defender.
A 110?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190624/e77ce8746af558bf1ad9542c384565dc.jpg)
From a test mule dash.
Interior spy shots.
https://www.autoblog.com/2019/06/24/2020-land-rover-defender-interior-spy-photos/#slide-7600229
Cool. Looks like I now have a viable option for a replacement for the LR4 when it wears out!
Quote from: Matt H on June 24, 2019, 12:19 PM
Cool. Looks like I now have a viable option for a replacement for the LR4 when it wears out!
Regarding the LR4, I've lost track of what Land Rover is building these days...other than copies of Escapes and Explorers at 2x the price of course.
Do they make the LR4 at all? Or was that kinda what the Defender was targeted to do? LR4 goes away, (new) Defender comes in and fills the spot left by the LR4?
The Discovery 4 went to 2016. The Discovery 5 is the current model.
I would be more optimistic if there were pictures of one of these things with a reasonable sized wheel & tyre package.
Quote from: Matt H on June 24, 2019, 03:30 PM
I would be more optimistic if there were pictures of one of these things with a reasonable sized wheel & tyre package.
...or doing a real camel trophy event ::)
Quote from: Matt H on June 24, 2019, 12:19 PM
Cool. Looks like I now have a viable option for a replacement for the LR4 when it wears out!
In my mind, this is what is really where Land Rover is not going to win on this model. What they seem to be producing is a more appealing replacement to the Disco 4 instead of an appealing replacement to the Defender. That said, they will win back some of the lost Disco buyers and further cut into the already poor disco 5 sales. The Disco 5 sales have been half of the Disco 4. At some point they will have to abandon it as further lost sales will not make it economical to produce. In the end, it does not seem to me that they will be any further ahead on sales than they were in 2016 with the Defender and the Disco 4. I can't see them attracting any new buyers outside of the brand. This is not going to win over Wrangler, Patrol or Landcruiser buyers. I'm not sure who they see as the market. I guess time will tell when we see what they truly are selling and for how much.
Quote from: Red90 on June 25, 2019, 09:10 AM
Quote from: Matt H on June 24, 2019, 12:19 PM
Cool. Looks like I now have a viable option for a replacement for the LR4 when it wears out!
In my mind, this is what is really where Land Rover is not going to win on this model. What they seem to be producing is a more appealing replacement to the Disco 4 instead of an appealing replacement to the Defender. That said, they will win back some of the lost Disco buyers and further cut into the already poor disco 5 sales. The Disco 5 sales have been half of the Disco 4. At some point they will have to abandon it as further lost sales will not make it economical to produce. In the end, it does not seem to me that they will be any further ahead on sales than they were in 2016 with the Defender and the Disco 4. I can't see them attracting any new buyers outside of the brand. This is not going to win over Wrangler, Patrol or Landcruiser buyers. I'm not sure who they see as the market. I guess time will tell when we see what they truly are selling and for how much.
Yes, that's my take on it as well John. Calling a spade a spade, this is an LR4 replacement, not a Defender replacement.
The Defender is officially dead and gone, as it that market segment.
Quote from: Red90 on March 16, 2019, 05:07 PMThe Jimny is a lot better. Live axle, multi-link coil springs front and rear. 36:1 in low range, 88" wheelbase, 1100 kg curb weight.
Had a look over one in Iceland. It really is a proper modern vision of an original Land Rover. Light, small, durable and simple with a nice modern drivetrain and interior and looks nice.
Lots of Defender rentals on 37" to 44" tires over there to see. I'm not thinking this new version will be able to fill that role. With these Icelandic machines, they move ALL of the suspension mounts on the chassis down 4 to 6" giving them a lift with completely stock suspension geometry.
Land Rover say the D5 is more capable than the previous D4 due to its enhanced terrain response (TR2) system. But of course they would make this claim and even though they are likely correct it doesn't address the real problem with this model.
The real problem is it looks like a posh minivan. It's expensive, wide and long.
It looks nothing like a Discovery that sold on it's mid sized packaging, had massive practicality and more than a little on its unique boxy looks. Add to that no cool Camel Trophy or G4 media of a D5 doing anything interesting and it's a bit of a dud with the Land Rover crowd. For non LR folks you could ask why they would want to buy one instead of a (cheaper) Ford Expedition or GMC Yukon?
I guess we will see. As far as Europe & North America go the original Disco was a huge hit so recreating a ruggedized version and marketing it as Defender could explain a few things. Especially when you take the new three family corporate structure into account.
Range Rover=Aspirational.
Discovery=Crossover.
Defender=Leisure/utility.
LR claim to have space in each for multiple models so perhaps this could lead to a more basic Defender Utility in the future while this new Disco/Defender does the heavy lifting with broader sales appeal???
Meanwhile, they will now make a vehicle that I'm at least interested in looking at closer if I ever replace the LR4. I can't say that about anything else they currently build. Don't think I will be trading in the 110 for one though. Likely the dealer wouldn't even recognize or want it anyway lol.
Quote from: Matt H on June 25, 2019, 12:50 PM
Meanwhile, they will now make a vehicle that I'm at least interested in looking at closer if I ever replace the LR4. I can't say that about anything else they currently build. Don't think I will be trading in the 110 for one though. Likely the dealer wouldn't even recognize or want it anyway lol.
Matt am wondering about the LR4. I am considering buying a used one. What would be the things to look for if I want an LR4 that can do what I normally do with my B-Red? Can you add 32" tires to them and add diff locks and central locks? How about winching and snorkels?
Emad.
The Supercharged V6 is more desirable than the earlier 5.0 V8.
You can lift it with suspension height sensor rods of a different length or a scan tool to clear a 32" tyre. Coil conversions are possible in stock or +2" height.
There are a number of different winch bumper options. Lots of bolt on racks and off road goodies are available too.
If you can find one with the HD option it comes with a rear locker. ARB also make an aftermarket air locker. They all come with an automatic centre diff lock.
Best upgrade for these units is 18" wheels and a decent all terrain/mud terrain tyre.
Leaked picture from the factory... Horrid.
[ This attachment cannot be displayed inline in 'Print Page' view ]
Not bad looking. Looks good going to the office. Won't see a trail or a mud pit
LR math.
90" = 102"
110" = 119"
130" = 119"
If I read this right.
Diesels
D200 - 2 liter, 200hp (assume straight 4 Ingenium. slightly uprated version of existing engine).
D240 - 2 liter, 240 hp (as above. This is an existing engine since 2015)
D300 - 3 liter, 300 hp (probably straight 6 Ingenium)
Petrols
P300- 2 liter, 300hp (assume straight 4 Ingenium. Existing since 2015).
P400 PHEV - 2 liter, 400 hp (as above with electric motor)
P400 - 3 liter, 400 hp (probably straight 6 Ingenium)
[ This attachment cannot be displayed inline in 'Print Page' view ]
[ This attachment cannot be displayed inline in 'Print Page' view ]
[ This attachment cannot be displayed inline in 'Print Page' view ]
[ This attachment cannot be displayed inline in 'Print Page' view ]
[ This attachment cannot be displayed inline in 'Print Page' view ]
No indication of pickups of any sort. No soft tops. No vans for commercial use. All just SUV people movers.
Can't quite make it out but does the standard model come with 18" wheels?
I don't think it is clear enough to read, but I'm guessing it says 19".
Ka-ching $$$, Ka-ching$$$, Ka-ching$$$
Looks like it will be fully ready for modifications.
Let's see....
- raise the front bumper for approach via dropping it off a small ledge onto hard surface.
- deep water wading....."Get the BIG grease pail and have at 'er boys!"
- trail ready..... let's bring back the G4 challenge in Chelsey only. Remember....no mention of the Camel Trophy....okay!?!?
But I'll give it credit where credit is due. I won't have to wear ear plugs on the hiway and I shouldn't need to coats in the winter time ;D
Like the LR NA rep said in Moab in 2015....."We have no idea what the market wants!"
Quote from: binch on June 28, 2019, 06:09 PM
But I'll give it credit where credit is due. I won't have to wear ear plugs on the hiway and I shouldn't need to coats in the winter time ;D
You could always fix your truck. ;)
Unless that front end is attached with Velcro I think many a New Defender will suffer the wrath of the saws-all in an attempt to fit proper bloody tyres lol.
The tires from the Moab video were 32" so it is not that bad. 255/60R20.
You can't air down a 32" tyre very much when 20" is taken up by the wheel. In a push to be more technologically advanced Land Rover seem to have forgotten the basics.
Our LR4 came with 20" wheels and street tyres. It sucked. After $pending big bucks on 18" wheels and AT tyres of the same overall diameter it dramatically transformed the ride and off road performance.
I really do not understand this push for large diameter wheels?
No manual transmission offerings :'(
It really is ugly
The irony of the "leaked" new Defender pictures has just hit me.
It hasn't even been released yet and it's already leaking! Perhaps it is a real Defender after all lol. ;D
Quote from: Matt H on June 28, 2019, 08:42 PM
I really do not understand this push for large diameter wheels?
Very much a styling thing, form over function as it were.
I'm glad to see that they are at least replacing the LR4 with something. The LR's were pretty good rigs. Certainly a different animal than a traditional Defender, but a decent rig nonetheless. If it is in fact a worthy replacement, they could have done a helluva lot worse methinks.
20" wheels are fine if you could get a 17" option but modern LR brakes are ridiculously huge.
I could buy a new one ton duality pickup today that has brakes that will fit inside a 16" wheel. So why do I need a 20" wheel to fit brakes for a unit that is nowhere near the size and capacity?
Style over substance is exactly 180 degrees apart from what a Defender has always stood for. At least have a reasonable sized wheel as an option for goodness sakes!!!!!
Quote from: Matt H on July 03, 2019, 07:21 PM
20" wheels are fine if you could get a 17" option but modern LR brakes are ridiculously huge.
I could buy a new one ton duality pickup today that has brakes that will fit inside a 16" wheel. So why do I need a 20" wheel to fit brakes for a unit that is nowhere near the size and capacity?
Style over substance is exactly 180 degrees apart from what a Defender has always stood for. At least have a reasonable sized wheel as an option for goodness sakes!!!!!
I really do think it comes down to style over substance. The 20's are what the new market likes to look at, largely because they accommodate the skinny banana peal wheels. Which reminds me, remember the Land Rover rep (name escapes me....ex-CT driver for the US who I was arguing with on Hells Gate) at our Moab trip last year? He made the comment that all new LR's are designed to NOT be aired down. Which is rather convenient because if you're only able to run skinnies you better not air them down or your rims are doomed!
Looking at the video John posted, they've got Brembo's up front, so that answers our question on tire size...unless they have a smaller engine/brake combo option. Oil coolers are in the bumper as well by the looks of it, which is a disaster waiting to happen :).
Quote from: Trevor on July 04, 2019, 11:05 AMHe made the comment that all new LR's are designed to NOT be aired down.
This is a surprising comment as it shows a lack of experience on any difficult terrain. You can't magically create traction between the ground and the tire. Lower pressure gives more traction and better floatation. So many hours of my life have been lost standing around watching people not make it through obstacles because they refuse to or are unable to air down to a suitable pressure.
It's very "pretty" >:(
Quote from: Red90 on July 04, 2019, 11:46 AM
Quote from: Trevor on July 04, 2019, 11:05 AMHe made the comment that all new LR's are designed to NOT be aired down.
This is a surprising comment as it shows a lack of experience on any difficult terrain. You can't magically create traction between the ground and the tire. Lower pressure gives more traction and better floatation. So many hours of my life have been lost standing around watching people not make it through obstacles because they refuse to or are unable to air down to a suitable pressure.
I mentioned in my last post I was arguing with him. 3 guesses on what we were arguing about....and the first 2 don't count :).
Worth noting this was a Camel Trophy participant on the US team. I don't recall the year, but early 90's I believe. He has drunk the kool-aid and is pushing the corporate line for sure.
According to the following article coil springs and a 18" wheel package will be available on the new unit. Plus lots and lots of durability testing.
https://www.roverparts.com/News/Archive/NewDefenderFirstRoadReports.cfm?utm_campaign=Roverlog183_10AUGEmail%20%28JbaPLv%29&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Klaviyo%20Full%20Master%20List&_ke=eyJrbF9lbWFpbCI6ICJtYXR0aHVmZmFkaW5lQGdtYWlsLmNvbSIsICJrbF9jb21wYW55X2lkIjogIkxIQkNWayJ9
That's a plus. They're not going completely to the mall crawler side....just a mall crawler with coils :).
I will say that I was absolutely shocked when I was down in Ouray. The sheer volume of Jeeps in that area is shocking. It kinda boggles the mind why LR has decided to pass on that market.
Quote from: Trevor on August 12, 2019, 12:58 PM
It kinda boggles the mind why LR has decided to pass on that market.
It's what LR does. Build it once and hope it lasts forever. Shades of when the land cruiser was released...... ::)
Quote from: binch on August 12, 2019, 09:34 PM
Quote from: Trevor on August 12, 2019, 12:58 PM
It kinda boggles the mind why LR has decided to pass on that market.
It's what LR does. Build it once and hope it lasts forever. Shades of when the land cruiser was released...... ::)
Well, the venerable 70 series Land Cruiser is still in production. REALLY unfortunate that we have all our idiotic safety laws or we'd see them here.
I hear what you're saying on the LR's though. They built a nice market segment, got everyone jazzed about it, finally even convinced Jeep to jump into it....then left! Doh!
And worse yet was in North America the defender was put into the SUV class rather then the truck class (pickups or suburbans) and they had to meet much more stringent safety standards in NA because of it. That certainly didn't help. So hold on to your REAL defender with pride 8)
:)
[ This attachment cannot be displayed inline in 'Print Page' view ]
Despite myself I'm fairly excited about seeing these things finally released into the wild.
It's going to be an interesting time over next couple of years as folks get to grips with the new units, aftermarket companies start developing "upgrades". Land Rover (hopefully) do something impressive to show off there new Defender and the obvious head to head comparisons are made with its rivals.
And for old school LR fans the Projekt Grenadier old style Defender is on it's way!
Leaked photo from new Bond movie set.
I'd suspect a good replacement for the LR 3 & 4.
Not as bad looking as I feared but Chevy called.....
They want their pickup truck headlights back.
More of a Disco 5 than than the real Disco 5 for sure but it does look like you can still set your tea mug on the wing with the bonnet open.
Quote from: Matt H on August 27, 2019, 03:04 PM
...but it does look like you can still set your tea mug on the wing with the bonnet open.
Nope. The checker plate is on the bonnet not the wings.
It looks to have skylight windows along the upper side, like the series defender station wagons. Maybe a bit like in a disco 1 or 2.
Quote from: Red90 on August 27, 2019, 03:41 PM
Quote from: Matt H on August 27, 2019, 03:04 PM
...but it does look like you can still set your tea mug on the wing with the bonnet open.
Nope. The checker plate is on the bonnet not the wings.
Older photo without the bonnet. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190827/3b6e6c64f29ffe03d00ef8a811a677e4.jpg)
Dammit.
Matt, there is a special LR tool you can order that clips to the wing to hold your tea while wrenching on the Defender. Projected cost is £300.
ROFL
Really you can just work on it from your computer over the internet. No need to be there in person.
$81000 for the 110.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190908/639b60990ecade7ea4032b29a124641a.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190908/00528863cd4df6bac9c545482d0d7dd2.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190908/240ce1a5b3ac70abf82765ab165c9687.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190908/7f0e47dba0f5e2f49edc174eba151dac.jpg)
I guess we have to quickly run to the dealership, pitch a tent, and wait to be first in line to order one.
A Go Fund me link will be added soon.
I wonder what the 35" tires option looks like, with an adventure basket and roof tent.
Oh wait....should one get the 90 or the 110!!!?
Off course, you can source an LR2 or Freelander with similar looks for cheaper price ;-)
Ouch. 81 k. :-X
Snazzy
The last picture looks Photoshoped.
$81,000??? Yikes. I'm not surprised though. A new Discovery sport can cost over $72K.
Quote from: headdamage on September 08, 2019, 11:45 PM
The last picture looks Photoshoped.
It is a lot less hassle than actually trying to drive it somewhere.
https://youtu.be/OYrN8MKLfJw
Richard Hammond review. MOAB will be awesome in this one
https://youtu.be/vac6mJE8rqo
Quote from: B-Red on September 10, 2019, 05:17 AM
Richard Hammond review. MOAB will be awesome in this one
https://youtu.be/vac6mJE8rqo
I would suspect the Defender would do quite well in Moab. Seems to be an evolution of the LR3/LR4/Sport construction, which are very capable there. And the obvious benefit of comfort as well.
https://buildyour.landrover.com/lr2/r/model/_/en_ca/l663_k20/4pbis
Starting at $65300 base MSRP....
No diesel.
Looks like the "90" unit has steel wheels of a more realistic size.
To be honest, I don't hate it. No way as bad as feared, in fact it has turned out better than I hoped. New yes. Different very. But I liked the Disco 3/4 and this looks like it could do much the same job.
Roll on the testing and comparisons!
I would make a nice alternative to a Subaru or other similar SUV and if I was looking for a car and had bags of money I didn't need I'd consider it but it is not a replacement for a real Defender/Land Rover. Rover should have called it the Beagle, Endeavor, New Horizon, or something other than Defender. It is going to make internet searches a pita in future when looking for real Defender items.
Even stupider is keeping the 90, 110 and 130 model names.
I'm nobody to ask as I think spending more than $30k on any vehicle ever is insanity.
Quote from: Matt H on September 10, 2019, 12:39 PM
Looks like the "90" unit has steel wheels of a more realistic size.
To be honest, I don't hate it. No way as bad as feared, in fact it has turned out better than I hoped. New yes. Different very. But I liked the Disco 3/4 and this looks like it could do much the same job.
Roll on the testing and comparisons!
It kinda landed where I thought it might. As you note, it could have been a lot worse (re: see first prototype). It's a follow-on of the LR 3's and 4's which isn't really a bad thing. They are decent rigs and a gap exists in their offerings since the demise of the LR's. From a marketing perspective they added a lot more "character" with the Defender pedigree as it were. That will help sell some I would suspect.
It is the final nail in the coffin for those that hoped LR would compete in the space they created, and try and challenge Jeep Wrangler as the top dog for the "lifestyle" market. What has been created of course is not a Defender, and I think we all knew it never was going to be a Defender in the true sense. That ship sailed loooong before Land Rover shut down the production line.
One real positive though...at least it doesn't look exactly like some Ford offering!
I think what they might be doing is chasing the Toyota Tacoma/4 Runner end of the market rather than the pure utility or the swap in a set of Dana 60's hardcore 4wd market. Not that many folks do that to Land Rovers anyway.
Looking at how many new SUV's & Trucks Toyota sell in this "adventure" space I can see why.
Yep. Pretty much what we knew was coming. It will probably help them recover some lost sales as everything else is so horribly bland. But they won't get rich. It is just too expensive to be a high volume sell. It will be interesting to see if the average Joe even notices that the Defender was released.
Oh well. Maybe Ineos will come out with something intelligent and affordable. Or better yet, Suzuki will come back to Canada. They are already building what is much more a modern evolution of a Land Rover.
I've watched some youtube reviews where the presenter is singing the praises of what a wonderful vehicle it is and how it maintains it's roots with the historic Defender with oblivious styling clues from the older trucks. I'm also fairly sure the videos where shot in the same location with the same trucks likely on the same day.
The New Defender - a necessary evolution?
Get comfortable, the video is over 2 hours long.
More from the brand
https://youtu.be/2OhBWttQvHg
Looks a lot like the DC100
https://youtu.be/53cxN_I3OZM
"Ready for anything..." Prove it!!! Let's see them put their money where their mouth was and run a camel trophy with these cars...then we'll talk. 8)
It will be alright. It should do better off road than the Discos with the larger tires and supposedly longer travel suspension. It will be a lot lighter than the LR3/4.
But an "old" Defender with a rear locker will still do better on stock sized tires. Wheel travel and real world ground clearance is just much better with live axles and body on frame. And then the much larger sidewalls.
One of the big downsides is cargo room. The 110 cargo room is about half of the old Defender.
Shall I start?
What size lift do I need to fit 33" tyres on my New Defender?
You saw it here first folks.....Possibly the worlds most often asked and at the same time most ambiguous question posed for the first time for the New Defender!!!!
I don't really see a situation for the average owner of an old Defender where they couldn't do the same things with the new one that they were able to do in the old? Except maybe afford the payments lol.
Not burst anyone's bubble, but the stuff most of us do in our Defenders (including me) isn't particularly difficult or only possible in a Land Rover Defender.
It will fall short of the requirements at the extreme ends of the old units niche but not many folk really want to take a brand new and expensive 90 and build a winch challenge or trophy truck.....although that would be cool!
Or throw a dead sheep in back....not so cool.
But yeah. A Camel Trophy like event to showcase it's performance in conditions likely to far exceed anything most owners would ever tackle would go a long way to proving it's worthiness of the Defender badge.
Let's wait and see.
Quote from: Matt H on September 12, 2019, 03:12 PM
But yeah. A Camel Trophy like event to showcase it's performance in conditions likely to far exceed anything most owners would ever tackle would go a long way to proving it's worthiness of the Defender badge.
Yup....put their money where their mouth is and make a convert out of me. And I'm not talking the wienie G4 stuff...that can be done in an old VW beetle! One proper Camel Trophy.....Or at least lend our club 6 or 8 - 110's and let us take them over the AMT. That would be pretty fare challenge for me.
And then provide a price list for the body panels which will likely be needing replacing too.
Dam that's an idea, easily replaceable body panels. I wonder if they did that?
Hope so. The bumper and front fender look to be one piece!
Quote from: Matt H on September 12, 2019, 03:12 PM
Not burst anyone's bubble, but the stuff most of us do in our Defenders (including me) isn't particularly difficult or only possible in a Land Rover Defender.
That's an important point that is oft-forgotten in these discussion.
When the early Defender were made (and their Series predecessors) there was but a handful of vehicles in that space, and few still that were truly capable.
Today that is still true and there exist a fairly short list of vehicles comparable to the original Defender with those hardcore and also versatile capabilities....but most importantly the current Defender certainly isn't one of them.
Insofar as capability goes it no longer exists in the category it helped create. Instead, it now sits with a MUCH larger group of SUV's that are equally capable. Every major vehicle manufacturer makes a vehicle that can go everywhere a Defender can go, do everything it can do. The differing factor in this category is not capability. Rather it is simply how much bling and comfort you want to wrap around yourself.
I started pricing a 110 for fun and stopped when I hit $82k with a full section still left to go.
As for playing in the same space as the 4runner, not sure about that. They're not even in the same ball park for pricing.
One final thing, this thing has 85 ecu's. Let that that stat sink in for a bit....
I figure if you really want one....wait a couple of years. I'm sure the price will drop like a lead ballon. Just for a lark...I wonder how much the ECUs are celling for. And better yet...where did they place them in the cars. I'll be the important ones are under you butt LOL
https://jalopnik.com/what-i-found-when-i-crawled-under-the-2020-land-rover-d-1838080009
Quote from: alany on September 13, 2019, 09:20 AM
As for playing in the same space as the 4runner, not sure about that. They're not even in the same ball park for pricing.
They're obviously not in the same price category, and I noted that. Bling separates them, NOT functionality. A 4runner can do everything a Defender can do, or a G-Wagon, or a Blazer, or a Grand Cherokee, or a Lexus, or Explorer, etc etc.
From a capability perspective offroad, all those vehicles are essentially equally capable. The main differentiator is the amount of bling you want to add on.
Base model is mid $60K and that is pretty much where the 4 Runner tops out. Toyota had always had a lower buy in price. That's how LR lost its developing world market to them. What is less known is the high cost of parts. Despite their reputation, they also require repairs now and again. Disco 5 is an $80K + unit!!!!!
But anyway, my point is there is space in the adventure market for another player. Not all buyers are motivated entirely by price especially when an SUV can perform as tow vehicle, minivan & overlander etc etc. Apparently the ND can tow over 8,000lbs? No Jeep, 4Runner or Taco can do that.
82 ECUs or 1082 ECUs today it doesn't really matter. The P38 had one central ECU and look how that turned out! Late RRC & D1/2/3/4 all have an ECU or two under the front seats. Everything has an ECU these days. The cell phone I'm typing this on is essentially an ECU. It's just normal for 2020 and dare I say as reliable as any other component on a modern vehicle.
I personally think Clubs like ours will be full of new Defenders in ten years time bringing more folks and a broader membership base. I watched it happen in the UK with the Land Rover Clubs when the original Discovery came out. It happened to all the Jeep clubs when the JK came out. The old guard is reluctant at first but eventually we learn there is space and respect for all the various marks of Land Rover. The diversity attracts a whole new demographic.
Unless we talking Series One clubs. Those guys are seriously hard core. I once watched an owner of smart early 110 get heckled, shamed and driven away from their club stand after attempting to park up within 20' of a row of 107" SW!! I thought the poor guy was going to cry. I don't think he even stuck around for the show. Not cool.
Quote from: Red90 on September 12, 2019, 11:12 AM
It will be a lot lighter than the LR3/4.
I was surprised to read that the new 110 is 4800 pounds. Heavier than the old model.
Apparently, you can make adjustments to the traction control to suit the terrain or your personal driving style. Not just the regular 'mode' dial or switch that everyone has now copied. But a system that the drive is able to tailor.......or so the ad say?
If that is effective then it addresses one of my peeves with the any traction control system. I don't like the way under certain conditions it cuts in just when you don't want it to.
They really need a way to override the computers and at a minimum force the diff locks to turn on. On our last trip the LR3 off road system kept faulting and nothing would work. Fortunately rebooting got it going for awhile. If you are out in the middle of a difficult trail without a center diff and no TC, it is very, very dangerous. It would have also really helped some of the climbs if you could have forced the rear locker to stay on.
Quote from: Red90 on September 15, 2019, 08:21 AM
They really need a way to override the computers and at a minimum force the diff locks to turn on.
Agree 100%!
Unfortunately all the electronic offroading systems in these vehicles are really counter productive for someone that knows how to drive (and for someone who does not even). And there is the added difficulty of on-raod systems like Directional Stability Control, interfering with the offroad systems. DSC needs to be disabled completely (hold button for 10 seconds, not just a single push) before going offroad, but no where does it say that in the manual (at least it didn't in my Sport). So you've got DSC pulling your power off anytime the vehicle starts to skid, and working against all the other systems.
Then you've got a bunch of systems like rock crawl, sand, mud, etc that really don't have any net benefit whatsoever when compared to a set of manual lockers ala the G-Wagon. Lockers are far superior in every case and if they had a manual/auto switch they would serve the goal of helping the uninitiated as well as the experienced driver.
It kinda boils down to that. All the wizzy systems are still never as good as a good old fashioned set of lockers. But that's boring, and sells for less I guess. And the current system is much more likely to fault/break down when you need it.
All traction control systems are reactive. Meaning there first needs to be a loss of traction before the system will react. It reacts very very fast. Faster than any human can but there still needs to be a loss of traction first.
Humans can learn to be predictive. Meaning we can spot an area where traction may be lost and adjust the vehicle settings and driving style before entering to (hopefully) not lose traction in the first place.
Without knowing any details of the TC system employed in the ND other than it can be adjusted I am hoping that optimizing both of the above would be the ideal way to go?????
And obviously, not have it break down when needed would also be useful.
Yes, TC systems are required for any automatic engagement system, be it simply TC or an autolocker. The downside of TC systems is that they involve a lot of moving parts, and a lot of electronics. Accordingly, they are prone to fail...and in the case of Landrover, fail a lot. D2's are the best example of this and are a big part of why all of my non-LR wheeling friends (rightly) are critical of LR's endless electronic snafu's.
My RRS was the same. After a day in Moab on the trails it would be prone to trigger fits of electronic nonsense. Typically a reboot/restart would fix the problem. Sometimes a disconnect of the battery was in order. This I think was a heat/over-usage combination problem. That said, TC systems have improved a lot over the years. Every manufacturer has one and they have been a staple of their lines for many years.
But a manual overide would be very handy for a locker system. Shut off the TC, shut off all the useless "offroad mode" irrelevancies, and turn it into a simple e-locker and lock her up.
Funny little anecdote. I was walking into Sobey's and one of the bag boys was out gathering carts and said to me "cool Defender!"
I of course thanked him, then he proceeded to tell me all about the new Defender that was just released!
So it's not just us crotchity old farts that follow LR. There's a few young'ns out there paying attention.
It's a nice ride. I did my built on the web and was happy. Lots of customization options. No 90 yet. So maybe I will wait.
Do they have any in Edmonton Emad? Or have you gotten that far on your purchase? ;D
I was poking around on the build site and a few things I couldn't quite figure out:
-- They offer a "winch kit" (gloves, shackles, etc), and have a picture of a guy working a winch. But I couldn't find an actual winch option (bumper, winch, etc)!? Perhaps that's still to come?
-- I couldn't find the steel wheel option that they show on the base build. Also everything appears to be 19' rims and larger, up to 22" gangsta rims bitchez! Yoh!
-- I'm not sure if they have a locker in these ala the LR's. They had this option..."Electronic Active Differential with Torque Vectoring by Braking"...maybe that's it, or not. I dunno, just trying to fit that into a sentence causes serious cranial discomfort.
I did LOL when I read about the All Terrain Progress Control which appears to be a cruise control for slow speed wheeling. Cause, well, learning proper throttle control is hard!
Quote from: Trevor on September 17, 2019, 03:40 PM
Do they have any in Edmonton Emad? Or have you gotten that far on your purchase? ;D
I was poking around on the build site and a few things I couldn't quite figure out:
-- They offer a "winch kit" (gloves, shackles, etc), and have a picture of a guy working a winch. But I couldn't find an actual winch option (bumper, winch, etc)!? Perhaps that's still to come?
-- I couldn't find the steel wheel option that they show on the base build. Also everything appears to be 19' rims and larger, up to 22" gangsta rims bitchez! Yoh!
-- I'm not sure if they have a locker in these ala the LR's. They had this option..."Electronic Active Differential with Torque Vectoring by Braking"...maybe that's it, or not. I dunno, just trying to fit that into a sentence causes serious cranial discomfort.
I did LOL when I read about the All Terrain Progress Control which appears to be a cruise control for slow speed wheeling. Cause, well, learning proper throttle control is hard!
The actual trucks will not be available until spring. So there are none to see.
No sign of a winch, I can see. Brochure says 10000 lbs and 150'.
18" wheels are there in steel and alloy.
I think that is the locker. Probably same as other models. Variable engagement wet clutch pack. The dash does use the word "locked".
This is from the brochure "ELECTRONIC ACTIVE DIFFERENTIAL
On or off-road. In ice, rain or snow. The optional Electronic Active Differential ensures the greatest level of traction. It does so by controlling the slip between the left and right wheels on the rear axle, helping to deliver effortless capability. Not only that, it's far more effective than brakes when traction is lost, reacting much faster and with a smoother response"
Yes, off road cruise control. Stupid.
I don't get it? :o
This new adjustable TC system is just a limited slip diff and cruise control that is plugged into each other? How is that new?
Why would I want to use cruise control while tackling a tricky section of trail anyway?
Toyota came out with "Progress Control" some years ago that sounds very similar. As far as I can tell nobody that actually goes off road in one really uses it to any great effect.
And torque biasing differentials, even electronically controlled ones, are not exactly anything new.
Besides perhaps more software, I'm struggling to see anything particularly groundbreaking here?
It is a full locker, not just limited slip. Same diff from LR3 forward, I think.
And more silly gadgets.
Wade Sensing uses ultrasonic sensors in the door mirrors to provide real-time pictorial information about the water depth when wading. The system lets you know when water levels are near the 900mm maximum wading depth.
Traffic Sign Recognition keeps you informed of speed limits and 'no overtaking' signs by displaying them clearly in the instrument cluster. When activated, Adaptive Speed Limiter uses recognised speed limits to adjust your vehicle's speed accordingly.
3D Surround Camera helps you see more around the vehicle. 3D exterior perspectives alongside a 360° overhead view make manoeuvring easier, while off-road views including the innovative ClearSight Ground View provide you with greater clarity when scaling various terrains. (3D Surround Camera also includes Wade Sensing and ClearSight Ground View).
I just can't even find the words right now.....
Oh wait, just found some.
What a load of bollocks
Quote from: Matt H on September 18, 2019, 09:56 PM
I just can't even find the words right now.....
Oh wait, just found some.
What a load of bollocks
Hehe, that does summarize it nicely.
There's nothing "Defender" about this new vehicle. Might be an ok rig (although waaaaay overdone) when it's all said and done and a natural evolution of the LR3/4, but it's no Defender.
I'm surprised that it does not automatically brake and reverse when it senses you are in water too deep.
Perhaps it deploys air bags to help it float. Is there an optional latte machine?
You can get a compressor for $1643 and a snorkel for $1334.
I was just watching some of the release videos on TUUByou and what I learned was:
1. There is a protective composite trim piece to protect the top of the bumper from wear and tear.
2. There are mud flaps with "land rover" on each wheel to protect the paint and plastic bits.
3. There is a solid plastic tire cover with "land rover" to protect your spare tire from the elements.
4a. There is a retractable side step on the top end model for easy access into the cab.
4b. There is a metal tube along the sills with plastic steps on the adventure model for cheaper and easier access.
4c. There is a metal tube along the sills with nothing on the bottom end models to help protect your sills from unwanted pixies.
5. Apparently my defender is only rated for 500mm wading depth, while the new defender can do 900mm wading depths.
Yup......it's a weiner! oops...I ment "winner"
Detailed dealer sheet for the US market.
Interesting. I didn't read the entire thing but in the second page it states what we have suspected for some time now.
That the New Defender was intended from the start to be a replacement for the LR4 for those not wanting a Discovery 5.
Should it be a called Discovery 5a then??
I do like that you can order a ND without most of the more dubious bells & whistles. Still a bit pricey though.
Well that would have made a LOT more sense to just call it the Disco 5 in the first place, wouldn't it. Would have allowed the defender a respectful end to it's life.....
This post showed up on facebook this morning. A Jeep inspire by a Land Rover. It has now come full circle?
(even non-facebookers should be able to open it)
https://www.facebook.com/a2aexpedition/photos/a.189546834460157/2464879820260169/?type=3&__xts__%5B0%5D=68.ARC_VRQGn3aXudw_lgxK0U_1jSnTWwbQEd7VHpCm4W-3lU8Mvd_XY59HTDXmmEeF6_kL7z_B9NFq3FaL_lALvFa2XBJYQdXRa12_DETnfY-EYyXO8lfgDMYYPS0uAcf06DkHShs6PjCZ15Tee_BmIarW-yDSlK2fQu9jzuNqsIr7Cg3F-VDgEkGev-OWkKh7U1yJF8JZpS97eFUWDxsqENMlEIKgwgZ1O1XD1Ow3lYIzV6JWVvvsyZzfanz_cfz90QvvxFmY21WKP0rYCfiKSSdO9WOpWXN4M84cpVh8fA8dO-lAjSyNI61IPaqAFz0LC5gkZE8GHjtVPNXLE0Y8iJt2xRaTTjtbxCY8rn_R0czLs5ZHuLBzE0kV&__tn__=-R (https://www.facebook.com/a2aexpedition/photos/a.189546834460157/2464879820260169/?type=3&__xts__%5B0%5D=68.ARC_VRQGn3aXudw_lgxK0U_1jSnTWwbQEd7VHpCm4W-3lU8Mvd_XY59HTDXmmEeF6_kL7z_B9NFq3FaL_lALvFa2XBJYQdXRa12_DETnfY-EYyXO8lfgDMYYPS0uAcf06DkHShs6PjCZ15Tee_BmIarW-yDSlK2fQu9jzuNqsIr7Cg3F-VDgEkGev-OWkKh7U1yJF8JZpS97eFUWDxsqENMlEIKgwgZ1O1XD1Ow3lYIzV6JWVvvsyZzfanz_cfz90QvvxFmY21WKP0rYCfiKSSdO9WOpWXN4M84cpVh8fA8dO-lAjSyNI61IPaqAFz0LC5gkZE8GHjtVPNXLE0Y8iJt2xRaTTjtbxCY8rn_R0czLs5ZHuLBzE0kV&__tn__=-R)
The Gladiator certainly isn't the start of this. That began with the Jeep JK. When they designed the JK they looked at the weak points of the Jeep line (size being a big one) and they incorporated aspects of the Defender into the JK to help address that. I've ranted about this for years...Jeep simply ate Landrover's lunch and beat them at there own game. Heck, it wasn't just a simple beating, it was a complete and total schooling of Landrover by Jeep. In the history of the automotive industry you would be hard pressed to find a company making such a decisive and targeted move into a space (Jeep) as a competitor (Landrover) stood idly by and exhibited corporate incompetence on a nuclear scale.
An entire market developed around Landrover, and it ignored it. Worse, it had the founding product of that very market, and it cancelled it! Gross incompetence of that scale is not easy to find...that takes a special kind of stupid.
The Gladiator is the next step in that process for Jeep. They are taking everything the Defender SHOULD have been, and continuing to evolve the lifestyle market that they have become the owner of. Jeep is selling millions of JK's/JL's. Landrover is on life support...again.
Yup, I agree with you on that one!!! LR just goosed the pooch on that one 8 ways to sunday.
Unlike the rugby game on sept 27 8)
I recall Land Rover giving themselves a pat on the back in 2012 for building the one millionth Discovery. That milestone was total Discovery production since 1989.
Later that same year Jeep had their own little milestone. They built the one millionth Wrangler JK. That is one million Wrangler units built between 2007 and 2012. That statistic should tell us something.
To say Jeep hit upon a winning formula would be putting it mildly. Thing is, Jeep & off road enthusiasts in general had been crying out for years for such a product. It was no great stroke of genius by the Jeep engineering team. They just listened and built what was asked for. An old school four door 4wd that was civilized enough to live with everyday but could be easily built into anything the owner wanted.
Sadly it appears as though Land Rover are a little hard of hearing?
One thing Jeep really screwed up is the head room or lack there of in new jeeps.
Quote from: Matt H on October 12, 2019, 10:07 PM
Sadly it appears as though Land Rover are a little hard of hearing?
WHAT...??? I CAN'T HEAR YOU....SPEAK UP!!!!!
;D
To be fair it did take many years for the idea to take root at Jeep as well.
Back when the CJ was the main product there was a big demand for a five door Station Wagon version a-la 109" since the Willy's 3 door version was mothballed. But they decided that instead of a long wheel base five door CJ what folks really wanted was the massive & luxurious full sized Cherokee.
Years later the North American market still needed a simple 4wd Station Wagon but again they didn't listen and built smaller Cherokee on a unit body.
Later that same decade Americans still wanted a home grown 110". They didn't get one. They got another luxury unit body SUV in the form of the Grand Cherokee.
By the time the JK landed in 2007 Jeep had the Commander, Grand Cherokee, Cherokee Laredo, Liberty and Compass all covering every single angle of the 4wd Station Wagon market. And finally the one enthusiasts wanted them to build all along.
All these other products sold well for Jeep but the 4 door JK sold the best.
Go figure?
You know....after my trip to the UK and our day outing in the lake district greenlaning it has dawned on my that we have over looked one alternative that is tried and true!?!? The IBEX!! I spent the day in one and was VERY impressed by how well they were built. You can close the door with one gentle finger and it shuts tight. And the seals work too!!!! Until I was told about it I hadn't realized it and a built in roll cage too. They drive train for the vehicle is all land rover and you have lots of options to build you vehicle from a two seater 4x4 to a 6x6 boat. Have a look for your self...
https://www.ibexf8.com/downloads/Brochure12web.pdf (https://www.ibexf8.com/downloads/Brochure12web.pdf)
What land rover has left behind can easily be replaced with this vehicle now and in the future.
The IBEX website is https://www.ibexf8.com (https://www.ibexf8.com)
Well at least there is a plus to is not getting the diesels. They are crap.
Wow... that doesn't sound good, replacement engine at 10,000 km. Advertised service interval of 34,000 km but your engine might loose a bearing due to oil dilution if you try and get to the specified service mileage.
The funniest stuff is the comments from LR employees agreeing.
and with the light weight oils and high pressure oils system diluting the oil must turn the engine oil into something akin to weasel pee.
Funny video though...enjoyed that!!!!
That was funny. Land Rover's legendary customer satisfaction strikes again!
In all honesty though I wouldn't buy anything diesel powered these days that had to adhere to modern emissions standards. DPF & DEF just wreck everything and it's always big dollars to maintain and repair. It's even worse in heavy duty applications. They don't even get good fuel mileage any more.
Just so much going on under the skin of any new diesel unit these days. I doubt we will see engine life expectancies like we have in the past.
And if you think it's just Land Rover struggling with this you will find all manufacturers can't get a grip on diesel emissions.
Time to bring back the gas powered V8s? 😎
Gas powered, at this rate steam power is going to be looking good.
https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=6132
Wow! I have never seen oil analysis even close to this bad on any engine. I would not feel comfortable with the petrol versions myself.
I think I better better maintain the 200tdi RRC and make it last till we have flying cars.
Yup, I see lots modern engines just falling to bits prematurely. Dodge & Chevy wipe out cam shafts on their multi displacement engines. Ford has turbos disintegrating and everything with variable valve timing (so that is practically every engine currently produced) piles up.
Just so many moving parts that have to work perfectly.
Quote from: Matt H on January 24, 2020, 06:16 AM
Yup, I see lots modern engines just falling to bits prematurely.
Premature is one thing. These are showing wear numbers 10 to 20 times higher than a normal engine.
And to VVT.... Honda can do it with zero wear issues and has been for many decades. These are just bad engineers.
Apparently the most popular option package when pricing out a New Defender is the 'Urban' package. Bright scuff plate and mouldings and spare wheel cover.
Yeah...... :-\
Quote from: Red90 on June 25, 2019, 10:09 AM
Quote from: Red90 on March 16, 2019, 05:07 PMThe Jimny is a lot better. Live axle, multi-link coil springs front and rear. 36:1 in low range, 88" wheelbase, 1100 kg curb weight.
Had a look over one in Iceland. It really is a proper modern vision of an original Land Rover. Light, small, durable and simple with a nice modern drivetrain and interior and looks nice.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Life-Arts/Life/The-Suzuki-Jimny-a-tiny-SUV-with-a-big-cult-following
QuoteHiroyuki Yonezawa - Chief engineer
Tasked to develop a new Jimny, he traveled through Japan, Europe and Africa to get feedback from users to understand the demands the next-generation vehicle would need to meet.
Jimny is a car of function more than design; trends don't affect us. No other car in the world is this compact and has this unique four-wheel-drive system. We often call it "the one and only."
Everyone shares our unwavering vision: to maintain real four-wheel-drive capacity and functional beauty. We succeeded in keeping the four-wheel-drive performance and small size, while improving the safety standards for use on paved roads and off-road trails.
We saw three tiers. At the top of the pyramid are professional users: those who need this car to do their work in the field of forestry, for example. In the middle sit the daily users: again, those who need it in the mountainous and snowy regions. Last but not least we have regular customers. These are the people who admire simple, functional equipment used by professionals, such as a dive watch or down jacket. They may not dive or climb Everest but they enjoy these tools. By targeting the professionals, we thought ordinary customers might appreciate the Jimny's value.
The car is simple and functional -- you can't get bored with it. And the more you use it, the better it ages. If you look at the model from two decades ago, it is still cool -- even with some rust and scratches
on the body.
I've seen a few of them playing at the regular Trials with the Raiders 4x4 club, at the Herrington Woods offroad area
https://www.google.com/maps/place/East+Herrington,+Sunderland,+UK/@54.8663607,-1.4627694,308m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m8!1m2!2m1!1sherrington+wood+sunderland!3m4!1s0x487e646e4479d97b:0x831a6c21a0cbfad0!8m2!3d54.8687489!4d-1.4384931 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/East+Herrington,+Sunderland,+UK/@54.8663607,-1.4627694,308m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m8!1m2!2m1!1sherrington+wood+sunderland!3m4!1s0x487e646e4479d97b:0x831a6c21a0cbfad0!8m2!3d54.8687489!4d-1.4384931)
There are two minds sets with their owners...."drive them like you stole them!" or "spend a couple of quid, modify them and work slow and steady."
Either way ...the seem to do pretty good all the same and they are cheap in comparison.
Why can't they find someone, anyone to do these reviews that has experience off road? Every person on their first trip off road thinks it is the most amazing thing ever.
Yup....his eyes were brown.
Test it with a camel trophy..then we'll talk. 8)
Quote from: Red90 on March 25, 2020, 12:22 PM
Why can't they find someone, anyone to do these reviews that has experience off road? Every person on their first trip off road thinks it is the most amazing thing ever.
This has probably all been said before and your comment was probably more rhetorical, but I suppose JLR wants the vast majority of people who will actually buy the truck, to see themselves when they watch the video. I would guess 1:10000 might drive a new Defender anywhere close to it's limits. I'd be very surprised to find this type of truck in the hands of an actual off-road enthusiast.
The point being is that he can't provide any useful comment on whether it is good or bad without experience. And then how can he compare it to the previous model if he has never driven one off road. Grab a 2016 model and drive it back to back over the same terrain.
They can't risk having the review say it is not as good as the old one.
So, I just watched the top gear review of the new Defender. Advertised as 'really' going off road in Africa.
The presenter starts by admitting that this is a Land Rover organized press demo and that he doesn't really get the "off road" thing.
We then watch as he gets more and more excited as the vehicle drives about on dirt roads and mild trails that frankly any Freelander or Series Land Rover in 2wd could do. Most of it could be done in a Buick for crying out loud!
The fascinating thing is the more he drives around the more he is convinced that only the new Defender with its suite of off road gizmos is capable of surviving such a trip.
He makes a meal of the in car off road display that I personally have found totally useless in the real world..
Much amazement and wonder was displayed when the chief engineer pointed out the rather unimpressive suspension travel. To a point where they are stopped on a down hill, opposite wheels hanging in the air unable to touch the ground and they get out and tip the vehicle back and forth like a toy. As if this was some sort of off road kudos?
For such an expensive unit that has been billed as the "Best off road ever made" this demonstration leaves a little to be desired. :-\
https://youtu.be/-_qGCzGR-74
Not much different then the last review was it...? It's almost the same thing from both presenters.
Boy...I wish I had a TV to tell me where am, how deep the water I can go through, what mode I'm in, etc. I wonder if it will tell you how to fix the car when one of the 83 ECMs fail...or worse yet...the TV fails itself. The old disco two had two issues for me. Airbag/pump failures and the 3 amigos. My rear airbags went up and down most of the time just fine. But as it turned out the went down far more often then they went up. Solution? I finally converted the airbags to springs so don't have that problem any more. And the three amigos.....well, let's just say we get along okay now. But I have to wonder....what kind of xmas tree you will get when the sensors start packing it in on this new defender? Must be a brillian light show eh? ;D
Did you notice how little stuff they put on that roof rack? But it sure looks sporty. The roof ladder on one side of the vehicle and that cargo box on the other side..... Has anyone looked at the sides of my 110? I'd have to have someone behind me picking up the litter I'm peeling off the truck.
Here's an Overland Journal podcast with some cred from what appears to be the same Land Rover sponsored Namibia trip. Settle in with your favourite beverage, it's 54 min. long but a good listen...
https://overlandjournal.com/podcast/
Quote from: binch on March 27, 2020, 12:15 AM
Did you notice how little stuff they put on that roof rack? But it sure looks sporty. The roof ladder on one side of the vehicle and that cargo box on the other side..... Has anyone looked at the sides of my 110? I'd have to have someone behind me picking up the litter I'm peeling off the truck.
I must admit I'm confused about those side accessories as well. For a start, if you don't have anything attached to them the vehicle looks like it has an awkward blind spot? And I have no idea why a person would need tiny suitcase looking thingy and umpalumpa ladder strapped to the side of an off roader? The suitcase will get torn off and the ladder? It's right over the rear tyre so......why wouldn't you step on the rear tyre? Unless of course you really are an umpalumpa.
Now that's a bit more like it!!!! If anyone will be merciless and honest on a 4x4.....I'd very much like to hear what he has to say about the new Upender ;D
This guy.........
(Puts on best Winston Churchill voice) Never in field of unaccredited journalism, has anyone taken so long, to say so little, to so many!
Let me give you the abbreviated version.
1, Land Rover sell Land Rover branded cool aid at press events. (Gee, who would have thought).
2, His favourite word is phenomenal. As in "Pheeee-nom-enal, phenomenal".
::)
True...but I do want to see what he has to say about it. Especially the side storage compartment and ladder ::)
I dunno, for me it's an LR5. And probably not a bad continuation of the LR line either. But that's all it is.
It's not a Defender, and never will be a Defender. That simply is a marketing ploy, and not a bad one at all. To suggest it is of Defender stock is like suggesting an Arabian show horse is a Clydesdale. All they have in common is their genus Equidae, much like the only thing the new Defender has in common with the old is that they are automobiles.
Back to Land Rover Discussions..... So this is the chief engineer. His biggest learning is that when you put bigger tyres on, it is better off road. And by bigger, they mean the same as before... And he needed to do testing to figure this out.... Good thing they have experienced people designing these things.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/defender-heroes-people-behind-land-rovers-definitive-4x4
QuoteRob Atkins - chief engineer, vehicle engineering
"....My team and I work on all of our SUV models: the Defender was just one of them....."
...But he's proud of two particular decisions: the use of bigger tyres to raise the Defender's driving position and improve its off-road traction....
The decision about the big wheels came early, says Atkins: "Even before we had a fully engineered mule, we did some testing after we fitted bigger tyres to a Range Rover Sport and it was very promising......
Quote from: Red90 on May 17, 2020, 06:59 AM
And he needed to do testing to figure this out.... Good thing they have experienced people designing these things.
ROFL ::)
They needed a team and testing program to figure out that bigger tires would be better off road? Based on the low profile tires they are using I think they need to keep at it, or maybe talk to some people that know wtf they are doing.
This would be me working for Land Rover. Hey boss, I wonder if larger tyres will make it better off road. Do you think you could send me to Dubai for six months to see if it is true?
It's good to know a Range Rover Sport with its many USB charging ports and cupholders is driving design decisions here. Perhaps they'll have another redesign to bolt on a solid front axle after being inspired ( in an iconic way) by a crusty old landrover..
Quote from: Red90 on May 18, 2020, 07:25 AM
This would be me working for Land Rover. Hey boss, I wonder if larger tyres will make it better off road. Do you think you could send me to Dubai for six months to see if it is true?
ROFL.....you're thinking too small John! You need to experience more variable terrain. Nairobi looked nice, and maybe the Lybia, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco tour of the Atlas mounts and North Sahara coast. After all......the vehicle must be tested thoroughly. ;)
That just too funny.
I do note however that most of the shots of the new car doing 'difficult' terrain show it going down hill only. Now I'm pretty sure I can get a Buick down plenty of difficult terrain. The trick is (Double entendre alert!) getting it up. 8)
Annoying video of the day. Gives a closer look at the interior and controls and you know will now where to find the closest USB port......
This is the video you have been waiting for. LR4 compared to Defender. As an aside, are there dentists in the UK?
There are dentists, but don't think they are allowed to serve patients just yet thanks to the lock down rules in the UK just now..
Quote from: Rambler on June 10, 2020, 04:33 PM
There are dentists, but don't think they are allowed to serve patients just yet thanks to the lock down rules in the UK just now..
Now, lets not blame their crooked teeth on Covid.
As a rule Brits can't afford both new teeth and new Land Rovers!
This is the very first review I've seen that the host doesn't spend 10 minutes waxing lyrical about the anodized crossmember in the dash. Why? I suspect he doesn't care because it makes absolutely no difference to anything.
Interesting review.
What a joke.
[ This attachment cannot be displayed inline in 'Print Page' view ]
:o OMG!!!
Is that the Canadian price???? I just gave myself whiplash shaking my head in discussed! So the big improvement is the price then......!??!!
Yup.....the beautiful people in California will love this one! The sheep farmer in the Yorkshire dales will stick with his pickup truck now.
I'm pretty sure I won't be having one of those in the driveway. And when it's 20 years old....I doubt it will still be on the road. Heck...it make an RRC project vehicle REALLY appealing doesn't it..... >:(
Quote from: Matt H on June 10, 2020, 07:51 PM
As a rule Brits can't afford both new teeth and new Land Rovers!
Ah ha! I had always wondered why I was drawn to older Series land rover's 😁
Not quite in the market for a new truck
Quote from: binch on June 11, 2020, 08:14 PM
I'm pretty sure I won't be having one of those in the driveway. And when it's 20 years old....I doubt it will still be on the road. Heck...it make an RRC project vehicle REALLY appealing doesn't it..... >:(
Range Rover Classic, that kind of price makes even a new Range Rover look like bargain! Ridiculous.
I've still yet to see one do anything out of the ordinary to justify that cost?
I just tried configuring a 110 to base specification and yeah, I'm out.
If I really really wanted one I could probably finance a base spec unit but it's a staggering amount of money for a Slovakian made vehicle that, if it didn't have the Defender name plate I doubt I'd be interested in. From what I've seen thus far it has nothing special over any other Land Rover built in the last 15 years.
Not that I think there is anything wrong with Slovak made cars. I'm sure they are wonderful. But as far as I'm concerned where a vehicle is made is part of its identity. Porsches come from Germany, Ferraris come from Italy, Land Rovers come from Britain.
Quote from: Matt H on June 12, 2020, 12:13 PM
Not that I think there is anything wrong with Slovak made cars. I'm sure they are wonderful. But as far as I'm concerned where a vehicle is made is part of its identity. Porsches come from Germany, Ferraris come from Italy, Land Rovers come from Britain.
I think this design would be a fail if it was made in any country. It's of no consequence.
Czechloslovakia produced the mighty Tatra trucks, Zetor tractors, and Skoda cars. An excellent country for machinery, near-German development for eastern bloc prices. Ditto for the former Yugoslavia.
A bad design is terrible wherever you produce it.
Wow you guys are being so critical! This thing is going to be awesome for going to get groceries and taking kids to school!
Bill...It won't be the Three Amigos, it will be an entire Mariachi band :D
Quote from: bumpydormobile on June 12, 2020, 08:14 PM
Wow you guys are being so critical! This thing is going to be awesome for going to get groceries and taking kids to school!
Bill...It won't be the Three Amigos, it will be an entire Mariachi band :D
ROFL
Makes me think of the movie "the gods must be crazy (#1) Where the series 1 land rover owner has to put up with the landy's little quirks and everytime something didn't go right (and it did..often) he would would say "ey, ey, ey...."
Quote from: Red90 on December 28, 2018, 02:22 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181228/c194d1b368e19ad6d3611e8c70770624.jpg)
So looks like the coolers are still in front of the front wheels.
[ This attachment cannot be displayed inline in 'Print Page' view ]
Those look almost big enough to use as an intercooler for my 200!??!?!?!
Lucky8 has verified that there is no way to fit 18s on the six cylinder trucks. 20s are the only thing that will fit.
Hard top
https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-britishcars/-hard-top--returns-to-land-rover-defender/42669
Just saw a new Defender on the road. While I was driving the 110. I wonder if they knew what I was in?
I see that Britpart has just released a line of 28 different bits to add to the new "offender". Everything from floor matts, to rear bumper scuff plate, to tire cover, "side protection tubes, and a "front under shield" - Robust, 5mm anodised aluminium. Protects lower bumper area and radiator when driving off-road. The undershield is also reinforced by the mounting assembly which enhances the protection. Allows easy access to the recovery loop which facilitates recovery of the vehicle if grounded."
Lots more bling to add too.
I do really hope the New Defender will be able to sell well for Land Rover. I hope it attracts lots of folks who would otherwise never be aware into this amazing fraternity of Land Rover Owners.
The New Defender is here. It's real. It's for sale. It's more money than I want spend and it's not perhaps what many of us hoped for but if lots folks buy them, then it is the future of the "utility" Land Rover. And besides, it makes the original more exclusive.
Anyway, it's good to see there is already aftermarket products ready to address the most immediate vulnerabilities of the design.
Anybody who has one.....let's go wheelin some time. Love to see one in action!
We investigated the winch option for the new Defender......sit yer selves down now......$10,000 cdn to supply and install thru the dealership! The winch supplied is the Warn ZEON 10-S Platinum WARN Winch, a 10,000lb winch for a 6500lb vehicle. And it comes with a price tag of about $3400cdn, but that's with a plasma rope. The install manual for the winch tray, sensors and braces makes it look like a very extensive job too. If you don't have the Dynamic or X-Dynamic packages the kit to install the winch (not including the winch) will run somewhere north of $3500. Having a remote control is a blessing as hard wiring this into the vehicle could be "fun". There is a great deal of cutting panels to make it all fit as well.
And your first pull through any muddy water will end up driving the debris into the radiator matrix through the air holes in the bumpers, just below axle height.
It will be very interesting to see what the aftermarket community comes up with for 'add-ons' in the years to come.
Yikes! Factory winch kits are always expensive but WOW.
Quote from: binch on September 18, 2020, 11:52 PM
We investigated the winch option for the new Defender......sit yer selves down now......$10,000 cdn to supply and install thru the dealership! The winch supplied is the Warn ZEON 10-S Platinum WARN Winch, a 10,000lb winch for a 6500lb vehicle. And it comes with a price tag of about $3400cdn, but that's with a plasma rope. The install manual for the winch tray, sensors and braces makes it look like a very extensive job too. If you don't have the Dynamic or X-Dynamic packages the kit to install the winch (not including the winch) will run somewhere north of $3500. Having a remote control is a blessing as hard wiring this into the vehicle could be "fun". There is a great deal of cutting panels to make it all fit as well.
And your first pull through any muddy water will end up driving the debris into the radiator matrix through the air holes in the bumpers, just below axle height.
It will be very interesting to see what the aftermarket community comes up with for 'add-ons' in the years to come.
Inflation's a b*tch, eh :).
When I bought my winch and bumper for my 2008 RRS from LR it was $3200 installed. That was a Warm 9200i (I think that was the model, and LR did have a special shutoff required in the package which gave it a unique designation from Warn), the LR winch tray for the RRS, and the install. Which all things considered actually wasn't a bad price considering it was through the dealership and everything was from LR.
But, money printing has its effects. 10k sounds about right, in our covid-crazy money printing existence. :)
What I find strange is why people do all of these tests and comparisons as if a new vehicle has been built. It is just a slightly different version of everything else they build. It will perform similarly and have similar reliability.
The moral of the story is that you should first start a YouTube channel and wait for it to be really popular before buying a new Land Rover. If you do that they fly in engineers and parts.
...it looks like it has the same capability and design as an FJ Cruiser.. I see a few of those around town here. Sorry, I'll pass.
Quote from: Red90 on October 18, 2020, 03:03 PM
What I find strange is why people do all of these tests and comparisons as if a new vehicle has been built. It is just a slightly different version of everything else they build. It will perform similarly and have similar reliability.
Yes indeed. It's an LR4. The LR4's were decent rigs, very capable in some areas, and generally an all around nice SUV.
If you're committed to building only higher end road focused SUV's with some offroad capability, then using the "Defender" brand and legacy to help sell what is in effect LR4's isn't a bad idea from a marketing perspective. In short, they will certainly sell more LR4's if they call them a Defender, rather than if they were left as LR4's.
As an alternative they could have actually stayed in the real utility/offroad market and built a Bronco/Rubicon equivalent. But, that ship sailed some time ago. Land Rover is no longer in the market of making real 4x4's and has not been for some time now.
It's resirection of 8) Freelander 1 ahahahhahahahahh
It needs software updates... WTF???
https://youtu.be/sb3BT5imkhs
So that's where MS Vista went to!!!!! ::)
"hang on guys! Before I air down the tires I have to update my software. Has anyone got a spare USB I can borrow...?
The fun part will be in 10 to 20 years when the software is no longer supported and does not exist.
Quote from: Matt H on March 29, 2020, 05:21 PM
Quote from: binch on March 27, 2020, 12:15 AM
Did you notice how little stuff they put on that roof rack? But it sure looks sporty. The roof ladder on one side of the vehicle and that cargo box on the other side..... Has anyone looked at the sides of my 110? I'd have to have someone behind me picking up the litter I'm peeling off the truck.
I must admit I'm confused about those side accessories as well. For a start, if you don't have anything attached to them the vehicle looks like it has an awkward blind spot? And I have no idea why a person would need tiny suitcase looking thingy and umpalumpa ladder strapped to the side of an off roader? The suitcase will get torn off and the ladder? It's right over the rear tyre so......why wouldn't you step on the rear tyre? Unless of course you really are an umpalumpa.
Matt - that's a built-in whiteboard so you can record all the issues when you drop it off for servicing.
Hehe, well, at least Land Rover is still consistent...they're Quality Control program hasn't changed. These guys bought a Defender and had it out for a day, then back to the shop for 3 weeks to try and fix a check engine light issue. It's a week away from Lemon Law applicability in the US. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9K_0w2XTstQ
Yes. And because it is such a large YouTube channel, LR flew in an engineer from the UK....and still have been unable to repair it. And these guys are huge LR fans. For years they have been trying to convince people that they are not unreliable.
The first model year of any brand vehicle tends to have more issues than subsequent versions. Land Rover however seems to have an unusually steep learning curve on all its products.
Embarrassing for JLR as they made such a big deal about all the testing they did to ensure reliability. :-[
This is becoming very sad in so many ways:
https://youtu.be/mkpB8okB-xw
To summarize. You can't invent this stuff.
After weeks with factory engineers Land Rover decided it needs a new engine.
As this would take months, they gave them another vehicle.
The new vehicle arrived and the dealer went to install the factory winch. The dealer could not get the winch to work. The got another winch and realized they had cut a harness that is not replaceable. The new vehicle is a write off.
They are going to get them a third vehicle.
Good luck if you are a normal person.
On the upside we have our very first New Defender engine swap in progress!
Would be interesting to find out more about "irreplaceable wiring harness" though?
We looked into installing a winch in a NEW land rover at the shop. Had a look at the factory install manual and allowed 30hours to install it. The install manual for that warn winch LR is using is short novel and the process to install the winch involve disassembling the front bumper, and part of the front end. HOLY COW!!!!!! The dealerships price for the wince and install was over $10k and after seeing what was involved I can see why!
This is so far from trail ready it's getting a bit silly!
So everybody's worst fears about the New Defender are coming true then?
Complex, non field repairable mission critical electronics failing & off road essentials (such as a winch) being ridiculously expensive and difficult to install. And that's only the Land Rover factory supported problems! Just imagine the aftermarket issues?
Disappointing.
That's about as far off the rails as things can get...hehe, and we're not done yet either!
Three videos into fitting a factory winch and they are still going....
ASPW somehow got his hands on a new Defender. Doubtful it was JLR. Guessing a viewer loaned it to him but I'd say his feedback is pretty fair (nothing we all haven't been saying already) and the hilarious part is the TFL guys left a comment on his video wanting to do a collaboration.
https://youtu.be/Dxt_j9qy51U
And the first commercial is for a Subaru LOL
And I like his last comment....."put a discovery badge on it, cause that's what it is."
Saw one of these the other day at Home Depot. Didn't really stand out, I just happened to recognize it but it certainly doesn't have the same presence as seeing an old Defender out and about.
Driving my 110 is like a guy magnet at a parking lot. They just come out of the no where and start coming towards me to talk about the truck.
Auto Expert John Cadogan video.
Wonder if this reaction from JLR is related to the TFL videos. I know PowerfulUK pulled some of their videos after a senior JLR exec called them about their vids...
https://youtu.be/ggrdEup0g30
Quote from: alany on December 03, 2020, 03:51 PM
Auto Expert John Cadogan video.
Wonder if this reaction from JLR is related to the TFL videos. I know PowerfulUK pulled some of their videos after a senior JLR exec called them about their vids...
https://youtu.be/ggrdEup0g30
Lol, some great 1-liners in that. A couple rather priceless ones...
"Land Rover Defender, such an enduring shit-heap",
"You can take the Land Rover out of Ford...but you cannot take the shit-box out of Land Rover. It's stuck up there like a barbed wire enema"
Rofl, the guy pulls no punches.
Unfortunately, it's sad that this is the state of JLR and this is what we're talking about with the new Defender. This model could be the demise of the brand if they don't get things turned around quickly.
Ouch!!!! You'd think they were attempting to re-introduce the Freelander 1 again....in it's original format. That was scathing....... :o
You're right Alan! It's like digging a your own grave with 100tons of explosives..... Lot's of room for company. ;)
Ha the TFL guys got their third defender and they have clearly lost trust in the new defender even if they don't directly say it!
https://youtu.be/PIl7Fq3LWxg
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: grizzlychicken on December 03, 2020, 09:32 PM
Ha the TFL guys got their third defender and they have clearly lost trust in the new defender even if they don't directly say it!
https://youtu.be/PIl7Fq3LWxg
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ha again you will giggle when you get to 12:28
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yup, not good when the truck threw a warning message when they started it. Sadly that might not be the end of that but at this stage, this is like watching a train wreck. Can't take your eyes off of it.
Quote from: alany on December 03, 2020, 04:38 PM
Unfortunately, it's sad that this is the state of JLR and this is what we're talking about with the new Defender. This model could be the demise of the brand if they don't get things turned around quickly.
I wonder if it will be that bad in the end. LR has been at the bottom of every quality tracker for, well, forever. The new Disco 5's, er Defenders, having reliability issues is pretty much exactly what one would expect. I guess the point is, folks that are concerned about resale value and reliability aren't looking at LR's anyway, so I'm not sure the brand will get decimated as a result.
Heh, I'm sure they would have preferred a problem free rollout, and that actually would have been news.
That last review spends a lot of time hammering LR corporate and the dealer for their conduct. But that's a different matter imo. In reality LR corporate is no different than any other car manufacturer...they are all bottom feeding scum that make a business out of screwing people over. Brand loyalty in the auto space will only leave you vulnerable to a barbed wire enema ;->
I feel it was the Tata ownership that really changed things for worse at Land Rover.
Almost right away they canceled the G4 competition. Then got their corporate lawyers to set about suing anyone using the word Land Rover in operations, even small repair shops.
Then came a culling of everything remotely practical in favour of an endless parade of "make everything a Range Rover" products.
The dealerships lost the log cabin and casually dressed sales staff and got polished granite and glass wine bar looking buildings crewed by shiny suit wearing people with zero knowledge or indeed interest in anything about what the brand was other than it's image.
Then they kill the Defender & move manufacturing out of the UK.
Last we have the disappointment that is New Defender.
Anyone remember those heady days not so very long ago when Sir Ranulph Fiennes was a brand ambassador?
Quote from: Trevor on December 04, 2020, 07:57 AM
Quote from: alany on December 03, 2020, 04:38 PM
Unfortunately, it's sad that this is the state of JLR and this is what we're talking about with the new Defender. This model could be the demise of the brand if they don't get things turned around quickly.
I wonder if it will be that bad in the end. LR has been at the bottom of every quality tracker for, well, forever. The new Disco 5's, er Defenders, having reliability issues is pretty much exactly what one would expect. I guess the point is, folks that are concerned about resale value and reliability aren't looking at LR's anyway, so I'm not sure the brand will get decimated as a result.
Heh, I'm sure they would have preferred a problem free rollout, and that actually would have been news.
That last review spends a lot of time hammering LR corporate and the dealer for their conduct. But that's a different matter imo. In reality LR corporate is no different than any other car manufacturer...they are all bottom feeding scum that make a business out of screwing people over. Brand loyalty in the auto space will only leave you vulnerable to a barbed wire enema ;->
I think he big difference this time around is the proliferation of platforms like YouTube that can be created by anyone and reach more folks and the fact that while JLR hasn't really changed that much in the quality/reliability arena, videos like TFL's spread that news faster but it could also be the thing that maybe forces JLR to do something about it. Or not.
Yes, let's see how LR reacts to all this.....that will be interesting.
This guy is good...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o9yr_MIZPA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o9yr_MIZPA)
Once I had a cup of tea that was very interesting.....
New Land Rovers start with sales focus groups that identify mass market vehicle demands. Then the designers get the brief and create the overall package. Then engineering is asked to try and make it all work.
Old Land Rovers started with engineering creating something that worked for a limited specific market. Stylists were allowed to choose the paint colours and the Sales department were told to go try and sell it to as many folks as they could.
Obviously budget has always been a factor both then and now.
The cost of repair versus the cost of reliability has always been a feature of the automotive industry.
Another thumbs down for the New Defender from the staff of 4 Wheeler Magazine's SUV of the year contest.
In a field of huge, full sized people carrying, road biased SUVs the New Defender should have walked away with the title. However the judges couldn't find many positive things to say about it at all.
Basically they were very disappointed. Lot of that going around these days.
https://www.fourwheeler.com/news/features/2020-land-rover-defender-110/
I did happen upon 1 "best suv" review for the new Defender. Overland magazine chose it as the best of the bunch, when evaluated from an overlanding perspective of course.
Quote from: Red90 on November 20, 2018, 11:30 AM
There was a discussion on our FB page on the recent state of Land Rover and I was surprised at how many people were saying that the reliability was so poor. I could not imagine spending $70000+ on a vehicle and having it break down when new. This was one comment.
QuoteI have had my Discovery Sport for 1.5 years and have lost count of it visits to the service department. Totally regret it's purchase.
https://www.jdpower.com/cars/ratings/dependability
Land Rover is dead last in 2018
https://www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer
36 out of 40 (in the UK).
Two years later and Land Rover is not only dead last still. They are pulling farther away from the second last....
https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2021-us-vehicle-dependability-study-vds
[ This attachment cannot be displayed inline in 'Print Page' view ]
OUCH!!!!!
I don't recall LR ever being anything other than dead last. That's been the one thing they historically have been really good at.
Hehe, I think that might be (subliminally) part of the frustration with LR from owners of Defenders and old Disco's with the new Disco 5, er Defender. We know our vehicles are complete and total sh*t when it comes to quality and reliability, but we love them anyway in part because you can actually work on them or customize yourself.
The new stuff is still complete and total sh*t when it comes to quality and reliability (the LR "constant"), but they are far from something you can support or modify yourself.
So I went and looked back and Trevor is spot on. As far back as I can find, they are last or second last.
Here is 2005. Kia managed yo move from last to 3rd.
[ This attachment cannot be displayed inline in 'Print Page' view ]
I bought a 2007 Kia Sportage for my daughter to drive a few years ago. it is 100% reliable and has never broken down despite two teenage girls driving the crap out of it.
It can't go off road like an old school Land Rover Discovery or Defender can obviously but I'm pretty sure it could keep up with an Evoke, Freelander or Discovery sport.
I say buy what you like vs what the internet wants you to buy, I wonder how our poor old grandparents ever made a decision without google, reviews and top products lists.
What do you think a 20 year old Lexus is worth vs a 20 year old Defender , even my 15 year old F150 is more fun than most of those reliable vehicles.
True, but I'd still be pretty disappointed if my brand new near $100,000 Defender gave me cause to come back to the dealer to get problems sorted more than twice what a vehicle that cost half as much would.
Land Rover tax is real and expensive no matter the age.