Rebuild effort on a 2.5NA?

Started by Gish, September 10, 2021, 03:55 PM

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Gish

Hi all,
I'm planning on rebuilding my 2.5NA over the winter as a project.  Yes it's slow but it does what I need it to in my defender.

Looking for some advice on what expect effort wise?  I had TRS do work on it 8 years ago when I got the vehicle and they did some of the larger items like head work and some gasket refreshes.

I'm rebuilding mainly to do the main rear seal since it leaks a ton as well as retiming cause it smokes a ton.
I'm pretty mechanically inclined and have done minor work to the engine like injector replacements but have never done a large engine task like this so wondering:

1. Time expected? I've seen a few youtube videos but they mostly look like mechanics doing the work, some say a weekends worth of effort, i'm expecting maybe 2ish months including parts shipping and just working in the evenings.
2. Any specialized tools required/recommended?  Still building out my new garage so tools required.
3. Recommended manuals? I have a copy of the following - https://www.amazon.com/Land-Rover-90-Defender-1983-1995/dp/1855203111/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=land+rover+110+defender&qid=1631310236&s=books&sr=1-1
It's been a handy book but would the Haynes manual as well be useful?
4. Any tips from someone who's done it before? Looking for any and all advice.

Thanks

Matt H

Nothing wrong with the 2.5L NA. It's noisy and slow but it still gets the job done.
Step one. Pull the engine.
Step two. Send long block out for rebuilding.
Step three. Send injection pump out for rebuilding.
Step four. Reassemble.
Step five. Enjoy!

Honestly, unless you happen to be an engine machinist or just interested in a minor reseal/refresh your dollars ahead just to have a machine shop do it. Its not hard, you just need a lot of specialty tools and time. It's what they do. Their equipment is calibrated and up to date and you get a warranty.

I'm a mechanic by trade and have built many engines old and new but these days I always sub it out.
My 2c.
No Road Except For Land-Rover.

Red90

There is a place in Calgary that did a few of them for club members. I can look up the name as it has slipped my mind.

binch

#3
CLEAN!!!!!    Keep you parts clean when rebuilding!!!!   I had mine done in Edmonton at the sports car centre.     A day to pull it apart, a few weeks at the machine shop (while I ordered new parts) and one weekend to reassemble the engine.   That's all they took on mine.   But if you're pulling your engine apart  spend a penny and get done right the first time. ;)


Klaus and Bruce had his rebuilt by that shop in Calgary. ;)
Cheers, Bill

camo388

#4
I had 2 of 2.5NA's rebuilt by Curtis Halvorson at Extreme Engine Development, 3102 B, 80 Ave SE Calgary.  403- 805- 8075  The shop is at the south end of the building.  I was there for the strip down which seemed to take just minutes but as each component came off Curtis would give it an inspection.  By the end of strip down Curtis had a list of parts I would need plus the usual gaskets.  Curtis has done several engines for club members so engine not new to him.  Mind you a LR engine isn't much more than a glorified tractor engine.  Injectors were cheap enough from UK to not even consider getting them rebuilt.  Injector pump was sent to Breedon and Gell in UK as it ended up being cheaper than using rebuilt shop in Taber.  I had 2 pumps rebuilt, 1 at each place so easy to compare.  Taber had to get parts in from UK as well, so they were not any faster either.  Talk to Bill Inch regarding parts as very fast service out of UK and he could advise of any suppliers other than Britpart.
If you need an estimate of cost just let me know and I will hunt for receipts.  At the time Curtis gave an estimate over the phone of $100 per cylinder which was the rule of thumb then.  I expect cost have gone up since then.  If I recall Curtis also did the head and with rebuilt pumps sent to his shop, he could reassemble engine ready to drop back in the frame. 

ugly_90

#5
You're going to want to send that one out rather than tackling it yourself. It isn't a complex engine, but with one small missed step, you shouldn't have started it at all.

On the seven LR 2.5D ex-Batus engines I disassembled, all had badly worn bores on cylinders #1 and #4. It may have been due to dirty air intakes; I guess the army didn't rebuild them before surplusing the vehicles.

Most of the 2.5D blocks have dry liners, that can be pushed out by a machine shop, it's best to use the machine shop jobber liners, as the genuine LR liner was really tough to machine in; having varying OD's.

If your 2.5D has green paint, it's likely a past Abro rebuild, and likely has liners in standard size. If you're lucky enough to have the original orange/red paint on your block, it likely never hit Abro, and may even have no liners, as I have one 2.5D block here that didn't use any from factory. For that one, an oversize would be stronger.

Maybe make your first engine rebuild a small petrol Briggs and Stratton lawnmower engine or something. Start smaller.

On mine, I used only genuine or OEM parts throughout, with the exception of the one large rubber o ring between block and vacuum pump. That one had to be aftermarket, as it was NLA elsewhere.

'Beware of parts unknown'

Gish

Cheers for the advice, if the price is alright on a local rebuild maybe it's better worth my time/effort to send it out and spend some of the time doing some of the more minor things on the truck like missing nuts/bolts and refighting stuff.
Be curious what the price was like if anyone can dig up an old receipt.

ugly_90

I seem to remember it was like $2K in labour for disassembly and rebuild in Calgary.  My parts cost seemed to be about $4K including the rebuilt injection pump and injectors rebuilt with genuine parts. You can get that parts bill down lower with overseas parts, but it's a bit of a false economy on engine internals.

camo388

I found a receipt for an engine done in Sept. 2015.
Tear down & inspection  $250,  De grease parts  $250,  Glass bead parts  $100,  De glaze cylinders  $80,  Resurface block  $145,  Glass bead & prep Pistons  $100, Polish crankshaft  $80,  Magniflux Head for cracks  $75,  Resize valve guides & size ($10 each)  $80,  Set Injector cup heights  $100,  Resurface cylinder head  $100, Std valve job, 8 valves,  $160,  and finally Assemble engine  $850.  Total of $2370.00  Then shop supplies were 5% of total = $118.50 and 2 cans of spray paint $25. 
Grand total with GST is  $2639.18  The engine came to me with fuel pump fitted so I could install in frame then fit injectors, fuel lines, intake and exhaust.
This engine was from a Suffield 110 so had no idea of it's history, (driving or storage) so I thought it best to have it rebuilt before I tried to start it and cause any serious damage.
The fuel pump was sent to Taber Diesel Service and the total was $1754.51 which included shipping to Curtis's shop in Calgary.  I see on the invoice I was charged $60, (1/2 hour) to check fuel injectors but I found buying them from UK was much cheaper so no repairs were done.   
I also found a list of parts with a total of 599.44 Pounds but this included VAT which you shouldn't have to pay.  So I'm thinking this is a working list and not what I actually paid when ordering through the ALRE club.  Today's exchange rate is British Pound = $1.75 Cdn.  So even taking parts total as 500 Pounds then that comes to $877.  There were likely shipping and Duty to pay as well so total more than likely $1100 to $1200 range?
The parts list was gaskets kits (overhaul and cylinder head), all new valves and rocker arms, rocker shaft, main, con rod and cam bearings, piston rings, hot spot (injector cup) and timing belt and tensioner assembly.  All OEM from Turner Engineering or Ashcroft in the UK and shipped to John Barge in Calgary.
Overall total using $1200 for parts, is about $5600 in 2015.  This should give you a pretty good idea of your costs though your parts costs will likely vary.

TJay

I ran across these guys a little while ago as I'm looking at rebuilding a 4 litre, they look pretty good, www.crossaxledcustoms.com, they sell complete engine rebuild kits among a lot of other stuff and the prices look good.
Tom

Alex C

its an easy engine to rebuild, all of the literature is available in PDF on line.

Fuel Pump (worth sending the the UK hard to find a local supplier that understands the setup for LR)

The cylinder bores may need a re-sleeve most engine shops can do that. or at least get you to oversize

The cam bearings may need replaced, if they do its best to buy unfinished and finish them in the block, hard to find a local supplier, if you buy pre-finished bearings its 50/50 that that will work

Head is straight forward, skim and checking the bores for pre-combustion cups is key

Crank is straight forward polish or cut order bearings to suit

Cam is polish or replace


Tooling wise its basic hand tools, a good engine stand, some good measuring tools Digital Vernier and inside/outside micrometers. a decent 3/8 and 1/2 torque wrench does not need to be snap-on, the Mastercraft will do.

You don't have to go far to find a couple of used 2.5D engines , and if you find one another one may follow you home.

For tear down take a lot of photos of each step, bag and mark the parts in small batches, water pump, front cover, exhaust etc, makes it simpler than rummaging through a bucket af part 2 months down the road.

Be selective when you buy your parts, anything that is critical buy OEM or genuine, bearings, rings, seals, bolts, theirs a few things were you can take a chance on a value part, just make sure its easy to get to and if it fails wont blow the motor.

example, valve cover gasket, sure but the cheap one, head gasket buy the best. Oil pan bolts, sure take a chance on some from the nut and bolt shop, con rod studs and nuts buy the best.

its a great engine to build from the block up if you have the tools, basics skills and time. What's the fun in farming it out unless your running a business and the math's makes sense.

Time wise what is the rush do it over the winter, mark the fasteners that you have torqued along the way.

If you do your own build the only thing you save is the cost of labor , parts machining you will not save much, you have to buy or have the tools, may be an investment, satisfaction of building your own engine and the knowledge it will give you for future troubleshooting and trail repairs = priceless.

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D90 200Tdi     67 S2a 88"

ugly_90

That is a handsome red engine, Alex..

Certainly, the engine he has in his LR now needs to crane out onto a pallet, no more engine repair work in frame or at a mechanics shop. Cover off intake, exhaust manifolds and fuel lines, and back of a pickup for a pressure wash at the carwash.

He'll be limited by time, money, tools, workspace, and ability to decide on which path to take next.

If he has all those things ready to go, one could try a home rebuild, following all manuals and disassembly/reassembly instructions, photographing and numbering everything as it comes apart and then goes back together.

He'll likely still need to visit a machine shop for most of the short block and head. The head will be need to be inspected, tested and any needed repairs made.

Maybe a bit of learning might be lost, but I don't think it would be a total fail to farm out all the short block and head to the machine shop at least, that's still alot of labour for him to take on, and I don't think you'd save much time or money with DIY there.

I'm still voting with Matt and Bruce though, send the long block out, and pay your $2700 labour bill on your own supplied parts.

ugly_90

Some photos here, showing bore wear that didn't hone out later. Genuine LR liners that were various OD. Photo of engine after liner pushed out and before new one went in.

I found an example of a high school level petrol V8 project that has enough missed steps to be sure to fix in a proper rebuild. After using ty-wraps and vice grips, you'd have plenty of past experience to unlearn later  ;D

Although its a Mercury Cougar, it does dovetail in nicely with Ivor's dream to fit a Mustang engine into an LR. I don't know if he ever did it, and its his dream, not mine.



binch

Do you want to play or do you want a proper job with a warranty? ;)
Cheers, Bill