Random camping fee

Started by headdamage, April 17, 2021, 01:29 PM

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Red90

#15
It is under the same minister, but this land is not under "Alberta Parks". These fees should have no connection to "Parks".  They are planning other fees for parks.

Step 1.  Never believe anything coming out of a politician's mouth.  I would love to see where in the budget it shows this revenue being spent.

https://www.alberta.ca/public-lands-camping-pass.aspx
Quote*The proposed pass will not apply to:
private, municipal, or federally owned lands; Provincial Parks, Wildland Provincial Parks, Provincial Recreation Areas; Wilderness Areas, Ecological Reserves, Heritage Rangelands,
Natural Areas. All acts and regulations will continue to apply including the Recreation Access Regulation that applies to agricultural dispositions.

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Trevor

Quote from: Red90 on April 21, 2021, 08:27 AM
It is under the same minister, but this land is not under "Alberta Parks". These fees should have no connection to "Parks".  They are planning other fees for parks.

Step 1.  Never believe anything coming out of a politician's mouth.  I would love to see where in the budget it shows this revenue being spent.

https://www.alberta.ca/public-lands-camping-pass.aspx
Quote*The proposed pass will not apply to:
private, municipal, or federally owned lands; Provincial Parks, Wildland Provincial Parks, Provincial Recreation Areas; Wilderness Areas, Ecological Reserves, Heritage Rangelands,
Natural Areas. All acts and regulations will continue to apply including the Recreation Access Regulation that applies to agricultural dispositions.

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SRD is part of Alberta Parks now as far as I understand it. But Alberta Parks is not simply "Provincial Parks" anymore. Pluz's, which this includes, are under that group as an example.

Also, this could simply be Emad mistyping as well.

Insofar as never believing a politician, I think I made it pretty clear my views of government (not just politicians, but they of course apply as well) up thread. Trust nothing, verify everything.

That said, I see comments here from all of us that are skeptical, and all are grounded in the fact that we have insufficient resources for wild space management and access controls...reduced personnel, etc.

We have a plan proposed that says it will direct resources to do that very thing. Yes, that should have oversight. No, I don't believe for a second it will necessarily happen as proposed.

But if not this, then what? If politicians and governments cannot be trusted (and they absolutely cannot) what is the solution? Do nothing? Get government out entirely? It cannot be more government because they cannot be trusted, or at minimum the politicians leading them cannot. We have already established that is a full stop.

So what's the alternative. Both you and Bill have voiced uncompromising criticism. I'm very curious what you would propose as an alternative?
"You will be hollow. We shall squeeze you empty, and then we shall fill you with ourselves."
― George Orwell, 1984

Freedom Convoy Truckers -- Canadian Heroes!
Justin Trudeau --Enemy of the People!

B-Red

I see the comments regarding government and trust issues. I suggest that you compare this to Lebanon (as a democracy) or Egypt. Or maybe Spain.
We are pretty good here so far.

Red90

#18
Quote from: Trevor on April 21, 2021, 09:13 AMSo what's the alternative. Both you and Bill have voiced uncompromising criticism. I'm very curious what you would propose as an alternative?

There is nothing we can do.  We are complaining. To be realistic, I rarely do vehicle camping in this province anymore. The continual increase in regulations has led to overuse as too many people are squeezed into ever decreasing spaces.  It is easier to drive two hours west.

All that I asked is if they are using the money, why is it not in the budget? If they were planning to spend it and not keep it, it would be in the budget. Unless I misunderstand the working of governments, nothing gets spent unless it has a budget.  We are talking tens of millions here.  It should be easy to spot and it should be easy for them to show us where it is.

Trevor

Quote from: Red90 on April 21, 2021, 02:36 PM


There is nothing we can do.  We are complaining. To be realistic, I rarely do vehicle camping in this province anymore. The continual increase in regulations has led to overuse as too many people are squeezed into ever decreasing spaces.  It is easier to drive two hours west.

All that I asked is if they are using the money, why is it not in the budget? If they were planning to spend it and not keep it, it would be in the budget. Unless I misunderstand the working of governments, nothing gets spent unless it has a budget.  We are talking tens of millions here.  It should be easy to spot and it should be easy for them to show us where it is.

Fair enough John. I think we're on the same page regarding governments showing where they plan to put the money, and proving that it in fact has gone there. I mentioned that in my response to Emad.

Regarding BC, no argument here. I spent as much time camping there last summer as I did in AB.
"You will be hollow. We shall squeeze you empty, and then we shall fill you with ourselves."
― George Orwell, 1984

Freedom Convoy Truckers -- Canadian Heroes!
Justin Trudeau --Enemy of the People!

Trevor

Quote from: B-Red on April 21, 2021, 11:00 AM
I see the comments regarding government and trust issues. I suggest that you compare this to Lebanon (as a democracy) or Egypt. Or maybe Spain.
We are pretty good here so far.

That's because we keep holding their feet to the fire. They screwed things up a while back though when they took away our 6-guns and replaced them with lawyers. It's been going downhill ever since.  ;D
"You will be hollow. We shall squeeze you empty, and then we shall fill you with ourselves."
― George Orwell, 1984

Freedom Convoy Truckers -- Canadian Heroes!
Justin Trudeau --Enemy of the People!

Red90

#21
There are no details in the budget, but the overall plan for the ministry is budgeting a decrease in both direct expenses and operating expenses.  They mention increases in fees (including this one) will account for $20 million in revenue.  So if this new revenue is used within the department, they are cutting that much expense from somewhere else.

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Trevor

Here's the Environment & Parks snippet from the expense section of the full budget (pg 116). They give a bit of a breakdown on some of their expense shifts. In the revenue section they mention $20 million increase expected for Environment and Parks from new and increasing fees, but nothing broken down past that (pg 89)..

You can find the entire document here...

https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/6f47f49d-d79e-4298-9450-08a61a6c57b2/resource/ec1d42ee-ecca-48a9-b450-6b18352b58d3/download/budget-2021-fiscal-plan-2021-24.pdf

Expense Snippet

Environment and Parks
The ministry's 2020-21 operating expense forecast is $867 million, which
reflects an increase of $335 million from Budget 2020, primarily to support
the ministry's economic stimulus plan funded by the Technology Innovation
and Emissions Reduction (TIER) fund. The ministry's operating expense
is budgeted at $499 million for 2021-22, which is $368 million, or 42 per
cent lower than the 2020-21 forecast reflecting the one-time funding that
was provided for TIER in 2020-21. Shifting portions of program delivery
and administration to third parties for Wetland Replacement and Caribou
Restoration activities will reduce expenses by $10 million in 2021-22 and
$18 million in each year thereafter, without impacting the overall programs or
services.
In addition to delivering on government's commitment to TIER, Environment
and Parks is responsible for providing Albertans and visitors opportunities
for nature-based experiences and outdoor recreational activities through
access to provincial and urban parks, public lands, and providing educational,
interpretative and experiential programs and services. Budget 2021 includes
$81 million in operating expense for Alberta Parks, to address increased
recreational activity on Crown Lands and support the vision for a parks system
managed in partnership with municipalities, Indigenous communities and nonprofit societies – integrating environmental stewardship with recreational access
and conservation.
To support government's commitment to improving data collection on
environmental outcomes related to Parks and public lands, Budget 2021
includes $13 million for the Digital Regulatory Assurance System over the next
three years. This regulatory transformation will shift applications for nonenergy development activities (for example fertilizer, rock and cement, mineral,
Expense | Fiscal Plan 2021 – 24 117
sand and gravel, water use for developments, livestock grazing) to a new online
system. The transformed system will support economic development and Red
Tape Reduction and an outcomes-based regulatory approach.
"You will be hollow. We shall squeeze you empty, and then we shall fill you with ourselves."
― George Orwell, 1984

Freedom Convoy Truckers -- Canadian Heroes!
Justin Trudeau --Enemy of the People!

B-Red

Note fellows that the bill was introduced ... not approved yet to go in full implementation. Maybe that's why it does not show clearly. However, it's a good point to check within next 12 month.

Alex C

#24
For the views we have in Alberta, even $100 a year for a camping pass is a great deal

Maybe the Feds could run it, we could have a tent and sleeping bag license, with a national tent registry, black tents would need a special restricted license, and secure storage for all camping gear, just incase some one steals a tent and goes camping without a license, on second thoughts i am good with the province running it , even if the funds are used to buy new Range Rovers for ministers.

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D90 200Tdi     67 S2a 88"

binch

I'm all in favour of back country user fees as long as the money collected can be used to create, maintain and regulate the back country areas.    We've seen it for years where some trails have been put into highly sensitive areas with little regard for damage and erosion.     I've said it for years....I'd be happy to pay a $100 a year for a back country pass so I could run well managed trails like BC's Jeep trail or the Whipsaw or Jeep trails.   I would very much love to see something like that here in Alberta.  Shut down trails that are getting over used or damaged, Install bridges, contour trails to topography, strict supervision/enforcement on the trails, particularly in the areas above 6000'.   

Now that I would get behind ;)
Cheers, Bill

Red90

Following many decades of the provincial government screwing over the off road community in Alberta at every turn I would be extremely skeptical.  People seem to forget much too quickly. It is like being in an abusive relationship, always hoping they will stop beating the crap out of you.

Seeing them make statements that 10s of millions of dollars are to be spent improving things with zero details of how is very suspicious. I would be happy to be proven wrong, but there is a 99% chance it is just another tax.

If they were actually planning to do something productive, would they have not consulted the off road community?  Has anyone, anywhere seen this? No, of course not.  Have they talked to the people on the ground?  It is highly doubtful.  Are they talking out of their asses?  Almost guaranteed.

Matt H

Quote from: Red90 on April 22, 2021, 06:52 AM
Are they talking out of their asses?  Almost guaranteed.

Lol, exactly.
No Road Except For Land-Rover.

ugly_90

its $33.25 plus GST for the yearly pass to rough camp on crown land in most of the province. That's  $34.91. Less than two green bills.

Apparently, this is less than a fishing license, the fuel to get to campsite (one way). You've each saved at least $1900 or so over the past year by having your pub and restaurant nights ended, sports games over. Nearly $35 should easily be found.

Many of the outdoor areas in these parts are poorly maintained, largely due to the clowns here that leave garbage, deep ruts, or anything else in the bush. Someone has to pay for that cleanup, it should be the persons using the facility of crown lands.

4x4's are fairly ubiquitous up here, often a small guy in a big jacked up truck, lots of high revs. Overcompensation perhaps. Much of the damage in acessible backcountry around here comes from some of these users.

One could follow the UK's lead, and simply tax engine displacement. This crown lands camping fee could alternately just be added to vehicle registration renewal on all 4x4 vehicles without farm plates. If one can't access the rougher areas, they don't pay.

it might be fairer, dunno.

Red90

#29
It just keeps getting better.  $90 annual pass for any vehicle enter Kananaskis country.

Soon their will be toll fees to leave your house.  Small government, my ass.