Defender TD5 Rebuild

Started by grizzlychicken, April 18, 2020, 06:14 PM

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grizzlychicken

Great thanks guys. It is interesting reading a few forums about this topic. Some  are for doing the cavity wax for just the inside of a galv chassis and some say it isn't necessary. I might take a wander to the interior of the chassis with a little inspection camera I have. I expect I'll see just galv if it was done right and that should be it :)

I managed to work on the front end and attach suspension and steering parts to the chassis. It was quite satisfying. I find it is pretty important to torque things as you go so as not to forget anything!


I decided to go with ranch shocks that are adjustable so I can turn the ride a bit depending on what I'm using it for.
I also upgraded the shock bushings to the super pro bushings.

I'm keeping the rubber bushings in case I don't like the ride with the super pros.


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Matt H

#76
You may want to back off the suspension bushing bolts and leave them loose for now. Then torque the suspension bolts to spec with the fully assembled vehicle, total weight, sitting on its tyres at ride height.  Once torqued I try to remember to witness mark everything with a paint pen. Then you can tell at a glance if stuff has shifted.
No Road Except For Land-Rover.

grizzlychicken

Quote from: Matt H on June 01, 2020, 01:45 AM
You may want to back off the suspension bushing bolts and leave them loose for now. Then torque the suspension bolts to spec with the fully assembled vehicle, total weight, sitting on its tyres at ride height.  Once torqued I try to remember to witness mark everything with a paint pen. Then you can tell at a glance if stuff has shifted.
Thanks Matt. Great advice! I was planning to retorque when I drop it down but if my pea brain forgets to check a fixing at least it was torqued properly at this stage :)

I feel like I have a new 10,000 piece puzzle that has some ratty pieces that don't quite fit and some newer pieces. And like any second hand puzzle there are always pieces missing. Not necessarily lost but put in it's special place to be deactivated once you had to go by the new piece ;)

And it's hard to put those ratty looking pieces back next to the new pieces! I keep going to fastenal to get more new shiny bits!

I started with the cardboard truck to label fasteners but soon realized I would need too many sheets:


I then went to zip lock bags and labeled as I went. Perhaps didn't label well enough.........



At least the YRM order is labeled so I can look back.


I tell you what though this site is awesome for helping guide the puzzle:
https://www.lrworkshop.com/diagrams


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grizzlychicken

Oh and I was doing a little fastener research and found this nice little chart that looks at stainless steel vs regular steel for tensile strength.  The highest rated Stainless hardware is still not quite as strong as the SAE 8.8 steel hardware.  The other interesting fact was that stainless is pretty dissimilar to aluminum in alloy content so galvanic corrosion will occur more frequently with this setup than with using zinc oxide which is more similar in material properties.  i'm sure the readers here are much more up to date on this than me bu found these tidbits interesting.  Oh and I believe  that is including using anti oxidant paste between dissimilar metals.

Matt H

I would still loosen those bolts off completely and torque them once you're done building the truck if I were you.

The reason being if you torque them now, once you get it all back together and sitting at ride height the chassis will sit much lower in relation to the axles (due to the increased sprung weight of the body, engine etc.) thus putting permanent torque through the bushes.

If you torque them fully loaded at ride height they will sit in a more neutral position, last far longer and not give weird handling as the suspension flexes.

Clear as mud?

Good luck with your puzzle! That's a lot of bits and pieces.
No Road Except For Land-Rover.

grizzlychicken

#80
Thanks Matt will do!

Salisbury diff blues.

So I have started setting up the rear diff! I am going to be asking advice on this one for sure! I am following the manual I found online for the setup which looks pretty standard:
http://site.lrch.nl/sites/default/files/Differentieel%20Salisbury.pdf

After inspecting the pinion bearings and cones they look in good condition so I am not changing them out. I did install the pinion and rechecked the pinion height. I did have a bit of backlash in the rear diff so wanted to make sure the pinion height wasn't a reason.

The manual talks about a a standard height block that is 30.93mm. So the low point on the bearing race support to the pinion head should be that exact distance averaged side to side. I did t have the block or the special gauge so improvised with a dial gauge and calipers



Since you have to carefully move the assembly back and fourth I measured multiple times to get a good sense of the pinion height which looked good.

So on the the center diff. I decided to upgrade the center diff to a LSD trutrac diff center.


So installed the crown wheel as per the manual. The manual talks about making marks and lining the crown wheel up to the mark but with then new center I don't think it matters.



So here comes the confusing part for me. The manual talks about installing the carrier bearings without the shims and from what I understand without the pinion. Then it talks about first checking if there is runout on the crownwheel with a dial gauge.


From there it then talks about levering the diff assembly to the right then left and measure in the dial gauge the displacement.
Has anyone done this process? For me without the shims installed the diff would lock when rotated. I don't think there is enough lateral pressure on the bearings and the sort shaft bearing is shifting and locking with rotation
https://youtu.be/X_Bf7_JJWDM

https://youtu.be/jWiQGH7kMwk

So I think I'll pull the bearings on both diffs, install the same shims that were in the old diff on the new diff and see if that solves it.

These Salisbury diffs weren't designed very well for ease of shimming and changing the lateral shims easily. I have to use a bearing puller each time I want to changes shims making sure I don't destroy the bearing cone. Certainly not a very user friendly way to change shims. And since it needs some preload you also need a diff spreader to install the shimmed assembly. (I'm building one of these.) tricky to that the least....

Or maybe it's my poor mechanical or manual reading skills........


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Red90

This should make you hate Dana diffs for a long time and dream of working on ones with carrier bearing adjusters. Whoever thought it was a good idea to put the shims between the pressed on bearings and the carrier was evil.

Do you have any friends around with experience setting up Dana diffs?  It is a Dana 60.  They are very common.  There are also a ton of videos and writeups on the net that may help.

To the specific points.  On pinion height, you are best to wait for the contact pattern and decide then. Generally though, if you are using a used R&P, you do not want to change pinion height as it has worn in at the previous height. On the carrier bearings, you seem to be mixing up two instructions.  One is to check runout.  The following and separate procedure is to measure the total thickness of shims needed. Many people don't do it that way, because it is hard to measure well (without experience) and you end up being wrong. Typically people use setup bearings that do not need to be pressed on to figure out shims. That way, you can quickly figure out shims to set backlash where you want and then add 5 thou for the preload. Some people simply look at how hard it is to seat the assembly to set preload.

grizzlychicken

#82
Quote from: Red90 on June 05, 2020, 06:42 AM
This should make you hate Dana diffs for a long time and dream of working on ones with carrier bearing adjusters. Whoever thought it was a good idea to put the shims between the pressed on bearings and the carrier was evil.

Do you have any friends around with experience setting up Dana diffs?  It is a Dana 60.  They are very common.  There are also a ton of videos and writeups on the net that may help.

To the specific points.  On pinion height, you are best to wait for the contact pattern and decide then. Generally though, if you are using a used R&P, you do not want to change pinion height as it has worn in at the previous height. On the carrier bearings, you seem to be mixing up two instructions.  One is to check runout.  The following and separate procedure is to measure the total thickness of shims needed. Many people don't do it that way, because it is hard to measure well (without experience) and you end up being wrong. Typically people use setup bearings that do not need to be pressed on to figure out shims. That way, you can quickly figure out shims to set backlash where you want and then add 5 thou for the preload. Some people simply look at how hard it is to seat the assembly to set preload.
Ah the setup bearings make total sense. So could you somehow modify the old bearing using say emery paper (yes slow I know!)/ Dremel or can you order a specific bearing for setup somewhere at reasonable cost?
Unfortunately I don't know anyone who has set up this kind of diff :(
For the carrier assembly I did try to check the runout but the carrier assembly locks when you go to rotate it because I believe it isn't shimmed. I am assuming the shims will be similar between the old diff carrier and the new LSD carrier but will still need to measure that in step 2.
I think I got a bit excited when I installed the bearings without any shims.
Just overall not a very intuitive process!

Oh and the carrier is a heavy sucker. Almost got my fingers crunched a few times. It is easy to get your fingers caught in the spline shaft holes!


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Red90

Quote from: grizzlychicken on June 05, 2020, 07:01 AM
Ah the setup bearings make total sense. So could you somehow modify the old bearing using say emery paper (yes slow I know!)/ Dremel or can you order a specific bearing for setup somewhere at reasonable cost?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rxm9faJWHzQ

Google Dana 60 setup and you will find dozens of writeups and videos.  Sometimes it helps to see how others do it.

Matt H

#84
Buy new bearings, dremel out the old ones for a slip fit to set up shim thickness.

I use the previous shim packs as a starting point and go from there. Especially, as John said, with a used gear set you should be aiming to replicate as close as possible the original gear pattern.

Gear set up is a fairly organic process and not one that lends itself easily to following a technical manual.  However, once you understand how things are interrelated and how to move the gear pattern around as desired it becomes much less of a trial and error situation. 
No Road Except For Land-Rover.

grizzlychicken

Quote from: grizzlychicken on June 05, 2020, 07:01 AM
Quote from: Red90 on June 05, 2020, 06:42 AM
This should make you hate Dana diffs for a long time and dream of working on ones with carrier bearing adjusters. Whoever thought it was a good idea to put the shims between the pressed on bearings and the carrier was evil.

Do you have any friends around with experience setting up Dana diffs?  It is a Dana 60.  They are very common.  There are also a ton of videos and writeups on the net that may help.

To the specific points.  On pinion height, you are best to wait for the contact pattern and decide then. Generally though, if you are using a used R&P, you do not want to change pinion height as it has worn in at the previous height. On the carrier bearings, you seem to be mixing up two instructions.  One is to check runout.  The following and separate procedure is to measure the total thickness of shims needed. Many people don't do it that way, because it is hard to measure well (without experience) and you end up being wrong. Typically people use setup bearings that do not need to be pressed on to figure out shims. That way, you can quickly figure out shims to set backlash where you want and then add 5 thou for the preload. Some people simply look at how hard it is to seat the assembly to set preload.
Ah the setup bearings make total sense. So could you somehow modify the old bearing using say emery paper (yes slow I know!)/ Dremel or can you order a specific bearing for setup somewhere at reasonable cost?
Unfortunately I don't know anyone who has set up this kind of diff :(
For the carrier assembly I did try to check the runout but the carrier assembly locks when you go to rotate it because I believe it isn't shimmed. I am assuming the shims will be similar between the old diff carrier and the new LSD carrier but will still need to measure that in step 2.
I think I got a bit excited when I installed the bearings without any shims.
Just overall not a very intuitive process!

Oh and the carrier is a heavy sucker. Almost got my fingers crunched a few times. It is easy to get your fingers caught in the spline shaft holes!


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Fantastic thanks John! Just what I needed. I have been googling Salisbury Land Rover diff and not a lot comes up so really helpful. Now to pull the bearings without damaging them!


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grizzlychicken

Quote from: Matt H on June 05, 2020, 11:33 AM
Buy new bearings, dremel out the old ones for a slip fit to set up shim thickness.

I use the previous shim packs as a starting point and go from there. Especially, as John said, with a used gear set you should be aiming to replicate as close as possible the original gear pattern.

Gear set up is a fairly organic process and not one that lends itself easily to following an technical manual.  However, once you understand how things are interrelated and how to move the gear pattern around as desired it becomes much less of a trial and error situation.
Thanks Matt,
Great advice. I think now with making a set of setup bearings it will be way easier to shim things up properly and get the proper tooth pattern.
I think I'm going to owe you and John a pint sometime for all your advice! Perhaps a physical distancing pint in the workshop ;)


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Matt H

No worries. Looking forward to seeing this beast in the flesh, so to speak.
No Road Except For Land-Rover.

grizzlychicken

#88
Quote from: Matt H on June 05, 2020, 01:33 PM
No worries. Looking forward to seeing this beast in the flesh, so to speak.
Well so far the beast isn't  to pretty :). Certainly mechanically sound (I hope!). The finish paint and bodywork will be my weakness!

Today I worked on removing all the diff carrier bearings both from the old diff center and from the bearings I pressed into the new diff center.


Pretty happy they all came off I'd like to say without a struggle but I'd be lying!


So went on to start to make the dummy bearings I need from the old bearings to get the thing shimmed up!

It turns out that the circular sanding wheel doesn't really fit inside this size bearing inner race so had to trim it down by 3/8 all round and it at least fits into the center now.

Trying not to keep the neighbors up with the drilling noise so will finish the inner race sanding in the morning and hopefully will shim it all up.

Oh and realize I probably will need a case spreader for this process so made a spreading tool from some scrap metal I raided from the local welding shops scrap bin and some threaded rod I had in my workshop.




Pretty happy with how it turned out but the welds aren't that pretty (I'm not really a welder) so hope it holds up.


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grizzlychicken

#89
Ok followed the guide that John posted to make a set of setup bearings for shimming the diff but unlike the 5min the video mentioned for sanding the inner race it took probably 5 hours of sanding with 80 grit to get them to size! Maybe it's because I had to trim the sanding wheel down as it didn't fit inside the bearing race.

Anyway it's done now!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVbNqvp4Uoc&feature=share

Onto the next step of shimming. Going to start with the previous shim sizing and check the tooth pattern. Mine measured in at .046" each side. Just have to figure out if the bearing preload is right as well as the tooth pattern.


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