A little comparison

[Red90]

Have you spent any time in a JK, Matt?

IMO, after having one for a couple of years and off roading it side by side with the 90, you are off base.  The power from the old V6 was more than enough and this was running 35s and stock gearing.  Way, way, way more than any Defender has ever seen.  They are not any heavier than a Defender.  Even mileage was not that bad.  On the highway, at the same speed, it was only 20% worse than the Defender with the TDI, certainly better than any Rover V8.  And that was the old engine.  The current one is better on power and economy.  A nice 3 liter V6 diesel would give more than adequate power.

There are some shortcomings versus the Defender, but let's face it, the replacement Defender is just going to be a piece of shit rebodied Discovery.

[Matt H]

I've had some seat time in JKU when they first hit the scene in 07. I wheeled often with the Grizley Trails club out of Calgary in those days because some guys I worked with were members. The JK owner was trying to convince me how much better his new Jeep was. I didn't like it very much but I could tell right away it was going to be a hit. I've also got first hand info from Dave about life with a JKU.

But I'm comparing the JKUnlimited, four door unit. Not the two door JK. They both had the shitty minivan V6 back then that wasn't powerful enough to get out its own way and burned oil almost as fast as they burned gas.....just ask Dave.

None of the older SUV models were blessed with an abundance of power but they were all able to be overloaded with gear,  tough, diesel powered, got acceptable MPG, comfortable and simple. All + when heading out into the middle of nowhere.

Don't get me wrong, if the JK had been a LR product I'd be the first to claim how great it is and how it has saved LR from being a status symbol. And I hope LR follow Jeeps example and get back to making utility 4wd's.

Yes, I realize this is a double standard. But so is comparing a 2007 Jk design to a 1983 110 design that was itself just a coil spring susension glued onto a 1958 design. Any Jeep v LR debate needs to end in the mid 80's because after that Land Rover stopped designing utility models.

In my eyes the current Land Rover brand will either live or die by whatever it rolls out as the new Defender. If it sucks, I won't care too much because I like the old Series units best anyway. If it's great then it will be nice to see Jeep finally have a contender for the crown.

Before you ask, yes......I always look at old rusty Rovers with my rose tinted glasses on.

[Matt H]

Thinking about it, in what way (other than image) is the concept JK Africa better than a Euro spec Disco 4 with the V6 turbo diesel?

[Red90]

But I'm comparing the JKUnlimited, four door unit. Not the two door JK. They both had the shitty minivan V6 back then that wasn't powerful enough to get out its own way and burned oil almost as fast as they burned gas.....just ask Dave.

There is something wrong with Dave's JK.  Seriously.  Ours was a 2007 and had the early engine.  100 mph no problem, on 35s.  12 l/100 km (24 mpg) on the highway all day long.  Never used a drop of oil.  It was a really nice engine, with tons of power on tap.  Fantastic off road on bone stock suspension.  Huge gearing range.  TC as good as anything, disconnecting sway bar, diff locks front and rear.  Never put a dime into it other than changing the oil.

You drive around in a truck that maybe has 100 hp and rave about it one day and then tell us one with 200 hp is underpowered.....  Brand blindness.

[Red90]

Thinking about it, in what way (other than image) is the concept JK Africa better than a Euro spec Disco 4 with the V6 turbo diesel?

You mean other than an LR4 is only good for light off roading?

[Trevor]

Thinking about it, in what way (other than image) is the concept JK Africa better than a Euro spec Disco 4 with the V6 turbo diesel?

They differ in a lot of areas, but would be similar in a few...

Disco 4: Primarily an on-road luxury SUV built for an upscale market. Light offroad aplicability and definitely need to stay clear of moderate to difficult terrain, very limited after market support. Excellent touring vehicle for highway and light off road environments with good range and excellent comfort. Good cargo space. Good hauling capabilities (for an SUV). Minimal ability to repair on the trail.

Jeep Africa Concept: Pretty much what the Defender should have evolved into. Dedicated offroader capable of tackling serious offroad conditions right out of the factory, very large aftermarket support network,  Good cargo space, hauling capabilites unknown (would be "ok" at worst I think). True overlanding vehicle not limited to the safe tracks. Good range. Utilitarian, not luxurious. Good ability to repair on the trail.

One thing I would add is that I have the fortune of wheeling with a range of vehicles down in Moab every year. They all have their pro's and con's, I've yet to see that ultimate rig, regardless of brand. But it has also shown me that there are a lot of things being done out there by companies like Jeep that are leaving companies like Land Rover in the dust. I would love to see LR take up the challenge. But if they decide they don't want to be in that market any longer I am more than willing to cheer on and support the companies that do want to be in it.

[Matt H]

You drive around in a truck that maybe has 100 hp and rave about it one day and then tell us one with 200 hp is underpowered.....  Brand blindness.
[/quote]

My Disco is 18 years old and cost me $900. I get about 30-32mpg. I don't expect to get modern performance out of it. Had I paid what a JKR cost, I'd expect more.

[Matt H]

Thinking about it, in what way (other than image) is the concept JK Africa better than a Euro spec Disco 4 with the V6 turbo diesel?

They differ in a lot of areas, but would be similar in a few...

Disco 4: Primarily an on-road luxury SUV built for an upscale market. Light offroad aplicability and definitely need to stay clear of moderate to difficult terrain, very limited after market support. Excellent touring vehicle for highway and light off road environments with good range and excellent comfort. Good cargo space. Good hauling capabilities (for an SUV). Minimal ability to repair on the trail.

Jeep Africa Concept: Pretty much what the Defender should have evolved into. Dedicated offroader capable of tackling serious offroad conditions right out of the factory, very large aftermarket support network,  Good cargo space, hauling capabilites unknown (would be "ok" at worst I think). True overlanding vehicle not limited to the safe tracks. Good range. Utilitarian, not luxurious. Good ability to repair on the trail.

One thing I would add is that I have the fortune of wheeling with a range of vehicles down in Moab every year. They all have their pro's and con's, I've yet to see that ultimate rig, regardless of brand. But it has also shown me that there are a lot of things being done out there by companies like Jeep that are leaving companies like Land Rover in the dust. I would love to see LR take up the challenge. But if they decide they don't want to be in that market any longer I am more than willing to cheer on and support the companies that do want to be in it.

I will concede the JK has more bolt on stuff available. I wouldn't want to be stuck anywhere remote with any modern vehicle. To be sold in NA any vehicle requires a dazzling array of complex crap to keep the Feds happy. But as for claims of being better off road ? Well I'm not so sure about that.....not stock for stock. Plenty of guys use the D3-4 platform for over landing. That concept is pretty stock save the export military diesel, jerry cans and fixed roof.

Understand I'm not blind to the assets of the Wrangler. It's a good unit and I know only too well the many shortcommings Land Rovers have. I've owned most models at one time or other. I just prefer old Land Rovers. Perhaps it's because everyone and his dog has one but I find modern Jeeps a little soulless and hardly the last word in off road.

I don't expect anyone to agree with me this is just my own opinion, you guys are welcome to yours.

[Red90]

My Disco is 18 years old and cost me $900. I get about 30-32mpg. I don't expect to get modern performance out of it. Had I paid what a JKR cost, I'd expect more.

So 115 hp is okay for 18 year old trucks, but if it is new 285 hp is underpowered? Did something happen in that time that requires three times more power?

I'm sorry but you are just wrong about the JK. I've owned one and wheeled it. They are easy to work on and have more than adequate power.  They are nice as trail vehicles. Really nicely designed to be worked on. The price comparison is silly. Any year Wrangler is cheaper than the same year disco or defender by far.

A stock wrangler blows the doors off an LR4 off road. It is crazy to say otherwise and if anyone wants to destroy their LR4 I would be happy to prove it any day.

When we were getting rid of one of the trucks, it was a pretty close call to not sell the 90.  If I had it cleaned up, so it would fetch good money, it might have been the one to go.

[Trevor]

Understand I'm not blind to the assets of the Wrangler. It's a good unit and I know only too well the many shortcommings Land Rovers have. I've owned most models at one time or other. I just prefer old Land Rovers. Perhaps it's because everyone and his dog has one but I find modern Jeeps a little soulless and hardly the last word in off road.

I don't expect anyone to agree with me this is just my own opinion, you guys are welcome to yours.

Yep, I hear you Matt, and don't really disagree about the old Landies. A lot of soul in those vehicles, big part of the reason we own em :).

For me this isn't at all about which is a better or worse vehicle. I'm just glad somebody is picking up the overlanding torch that LR appears to be dropping. I want to wheel and be out there enjoying things, and hopefully there will be manufacturers that keep building vehicles for that.

[Red90]

The point of this thread is being missed.  The next generation Wrangler with a real diesel engine (not the baby things you get in a Defender) and an aluminum body is what Land Rover should be building as the Defender replacement.  One of the downsides of the current Wrangler versus the CURRENT Defender is the smaller load space in the long wheelbase versions and this concept addresses that downfall.  All of the other aspects of the current models are close enough that you can argue either way.

[Trevor]

The point of this thread is being missed.  The next generation Wrangler with a real diesel engine (not the baby things you get in a Defender) and an aluminum body is what Land Rover should be building as the Defender replacement.  One of the downsides of the current Wrangler versus the CURRENT Defender is the smaller load space in the long wheelbase versions and this concept addresses that downfall.  All of the other aspects of the current models are close enough that you can argue either way.

That's pretty much a spot on summary John!

[Matt H]

My Disco is 18 years old and cost me $900. I get about 30-32mpg. I don't expect to get modern performance out of it. Had I paid what a JKR cost, I'd expect more.

So 115 hp is okay for 18 year old trucks, but if it is new 285 hp is underpowered? Did something happen in that time that requires three times more power?

I'm sorry but you are just wrong about the JK. I've owned one and wheeled it. They are easy to work on and have more than adequate power.  They are nice as trail vehicles. Really nicely designed to be worked on. The price comparison is silly. Any year Wrangler is cheaper than the same year disco or defender by far.

A stock wrangler blows the doors off an LR4 off road. It is crazy to say otherwise and if anyone wants to destroy their LR4 I would be happy to prove it any day.

When we were getting rid of one of the trucks, it was a pretty close call to not sell the 90.  If I had it cleaned up, so it would fetch good money, it might have been the one to go.

IIRC John your jeep is the two door unit with a manual gearbox? I'm purely comparing the stock four door units in general and the Africa concept in particular. I've driven both two and four door Wranglers and the difference is dramatic, especially if the two door has just the rag top.

Why do modern vehicles need so much more power and why don't they get very good mpg? What has changed is the vehicle weight. A stock DI tips the scales at just under 4500lbs. A stock four door JK is 1000lbs heavier. That's like carrying three really fat mates everywhere you go!! Now add the perminent hard top, winch bumper and winch, cool jerry cans, roof rack, steel wheels and before you even throw in a bag of chips your vehicle curb weight has ballooned significantly.

Opinions on D3-4 off road worthiness is subjective. From my own unit I can confidently say that where vehicle weight is not the one deciding factor (the LR3 is also a fatty at 5500lbs) it is supprisingly good once you understand how to drive it.

I would rate your 90 as being as one of the most comprehensively set up units I've ever come across on this side of the pond. Lots of nicely thought out mods. I would expect to get quite a good sum from somebody that knows what he's looking at.

[Matt H]

The point of this thread is being missed.  The next generation Wrangler with a real diesel engine (not the baby things you get in a Defender) and an aluminum body is what Land Rover should be building as the Defender replacement.

Land Rover have always built an aluminium bodied diesel Defender??
Given the effort taken to use aluminium and diesel power trains with other models it would be a stretch to think that after all these years they would go any other way with any Defender replacement.

For me the point is Jeep (at least as far as the wrangler is concerned, many forget about the rest of the tat they also build) would seem to be more in tune with the 'outdoorsman' customer. Showing concepts of vehicles we may want to buy.

I wish LR would give the same effort.....but they are probably at the golf masters in Augusta right now pedalling immaculate $150K Range Rovers. Sigh.

I will never give up hope LR will come through with a great unit one day but then again I'm English and after a lifetime of cheering the national football team on only to be rewarded with embassingly poor performances I'm used to supporting a cause that yields nothing but past glory and constant disappointment.

[binch]

Good one Matt ;D   I'm  enjoying this friendly bit of banter