Alberta Land Rover Enthusiasts Club Forum
General => Non Technical Discussion => Topic started by: GR8PMKN on June 16, 2020, 06:59 PM
Hi there, new member here. I have dreamed of owning a 110 since I was a kid seeing Camel Trophy videos (me and everyone else, right?). My current 4x4s are a 2013 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, and a 1994 Jeep Cherokee Country. My past ones are a '96 Cherokee, a '76 CJ5 and an '85 Toyota SR5 Pickup. Please don't kick me out yet, I'm not the enemy, I hope!
Now that I'm passing through mid-life, I'm getting the obsession back in a strong way to once again seriously start researching the possibility of getting a 110. So many questions to ask on importing (yes, I searched the forum but the newest stuff was 2016), and which configuration (engine/other updates) to choose. I'm considering the 300TDi, TD5, or waiting a couple years for a Puma, which I think my wife would prefer with all the other "improvements" that were added along with the newer models. I currently do some overlanding with the Rubicon and am pretty well set up. Most of the stuff would be transferrable to the 110 when I get it, and that would probably be its main purpose. I haven't decided if I would drive it in the winter or not.
I know that there aren't any Pumas in Canada yet, and it'll be the 2.4L available first, until 2027 for the importing of the 2.2L (which is supposed to be the better of the 2, so they say). Does anyone here have any preference/comments on the motors?
Is there a reputable channel to go through to buy/import one sight-unseen? I'm nervous about going to Europe to find one, and having it all boil down to luck. Right one in the right place at the right time might not happen, plus that trip will add to the total expense. I'm also nervous about buying one sight-unseen!
Looking for recommendations if you were in my shoes right now. I'm likely a couple years out since I'm leaning towards the Puma, but I could be convinced otherwise (as long as I can convince the wife... haha). I don't want to be ripped off, as I know these trucks vary wildly in price.
Thanks for adding me. I look forward to the discussion.
The Pumas have a fairly bad rep. You are better with a TD5. Whatever you do you need a trustworthy third party to look at it. A huge proportional of sellers can't be trusted. There are a few locals in midst of rebuilding theirs from the ground up after finding this first hand that I'm sure would be happy to let you know.
Before you go too far you might want to see and drive one. They are not for everyone.
I have a friend in Calgary with a 90 which I love. I haven't spent a ton of time in it though. I don't know anyone with a 110. My wife and I are not hefty people, so I don't think that we'd be too cramped (if that's one thing you're referring to).
What are the major issues with the Pumas?
Do the TD5s have other problems? I've heard the TD5s might be the best of both worlds as far as being able to work on them, and "newer" tech.
Reliability problems with the engines and gearboxes. Just what I've heard from the places that could buy them new. Everyone says to go with the TD5. It is reliable and you can safely soup it up a fair amount.
Defenders are generally slow, noisy and expensive compared to most everything else out there. And at the 15+ years old, you will need to work on them. It is not for everyone and not everyone's partners are impressed. It would be worth it meeting up with a 110 TD5 owner and getting a feel for it.
From the folks I've chatted with in the UK they find the puma engine weak on low end torque from a stop but they do nicely once they get going, and they can produce a bit better speed with less noise. The 6 speed gearbox has an amazing bo-low range with a 60:1 ration if I remember correctly and it's great for crawling or pulling a trailer (since the engine lack low end torque). But the 6 speed gearbox has been having a lot of premature failures associated to one of the shafts (lack of oil supply). Apparently Ashcrofts have come up with a solution to that failure and fixed it, since LR wouldn't. A friend of mine has one of the last units built of the real defender and I've been out in it a couple of times. Boy was it nice and civilized on the road compared to my 110 exmod with a 200tdi. 3 door. It had a heater that worked well and you could hold a conversation in it to, without yelling. His vehicle has gone up in value in the uk since they stopped making them!
All that said his serious off road toy is his IBEX 4x4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN24pcNApSw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN24pcNApSw) which is a rebodied land rover which is built based on the customer's requirements (200, 300, Td5, V8 and axle types etc). The doors close easily with two fingers and they seal too!!! They are quite and a good 4 to 6 inches wider in the body compared to the defender so Loads of space for even the biggest person. In fact the owner is a little over 6" and 240lbs or so, and he fits just fine. He selected the 90" (or is it 100") wheel base and the Td5 engine to go with it. In the spring of 2019 I went up into the Lake District to do some green laining and he actually let me drive it too!?! OH, I DID LIKE IT!!!! But with mostly land rover parts in the suspension, Steering, axles, drive line and engine it's easy to get parts and maintain.
As for the Td5 engine.....It pulls like a train and can easily keep up on the highway. But it does have electickery involved so it's not as basic as the 200di and early 300tdi. But it is quieter and can pull harder. One thing to remember about the 300tdi's and the Td5......You HAVE to be religious about your oil and coolant levels. You must keep them in check or the end result is big work.
I have a 200tdi in my 110 and it chugs along nicely. I don't pass a lot of people so I'm good with that. But....if it's snowing outside then it will be snowing inside. If the wind is blowing hard from the left my right door top will open a bit and whistle. It's heater is only adequate down to minus 15C. When I go through 3 or 4 feet of water the truck fills up with water, but that holds me on the bottom for traction. It's not pretty, it's not terribly comfortable and it's creature comforts are almost non existent. But it's ex military and infantry is cheap. Now ask me if I'd give up my landy.... NOT BLOODY LIKELY!!!!!
Oh, by the way. My name is Bill and I own a land rover. Welcome to LR Anonymous ;D
If you decide to look for a landy let me know....I know people that can help, that I have a little faith in.
For me a late pre electronic control 300tdi was the one to buy. I looked for about a year and a half before I found the one I wanted at a price I could live with.
Initially I also planned to import one. My family are all in the UK and looked at a few for me. However I ended up buying a 300tdi left hand drive unit that was for sale in Winnipeg. If you check out the classifieds and Kijiji etc you will find a surprising amount for sale at nearly all price points $20K and up that can be looked at in person.
Forget driving it regularly in a Canadian winter unless you upgrade basically everything that has a bearing on comfort and vision. It can and has been done in stock Defenders (by myself and many others) but it's more about endurance than enjoyment. However one of the best, if not THE best, things about Defenders is the ease of modification into exactly what you want.
Try tagging along on club trail ride sometime with your Jeep (we won't lynch you) and see a few in action and talk to the owners, ask questions, ride along, check out different set ups. We are a friendly bunch and most guys love sharing their experiences with their Land Rovers.
Sounds like you are experienced in 4wd's so you'll know what attributes are important to you.
Fair warning though, once bitten by the Land Rover bug it's incurable. The Camel Trophy certainly has a lot to answer for....
My 2c.
Quote from: GR8PMKN on June 16, 2020, 07:36 PM
My wife and I are not hefty people, so I don't think that we'd be too cramped (if that's one thing you're referring to).
If like most of us you have two arms and legs you will discover quickly there is nowhere to put whichever is next to the door. You get used to it but even the fancy dash TDCI units are not the most ergonomic of vehicles.
Although I will say that the stock Station Wagon front seats, despite looking thin and flimsy are extremely comfortable!
Red90 – I wonder if there are/will be fixes for the Puma problems before I get one... I'm definitely not sold on one yet, and I'm still kinda leaning towards a TD5. I could fall on either side of the fence there. Maybe even if a gem of a 300TDi pops up. I think time will tell on which one presents itself at the right time at the right price.
Does anyone have any experience re-tuning the electronics on the TD5 for better performance? I've never chipped anything in my life. I'm afraid of blowing something up. The better highway performance I hear you can get chipping the TD5 could be another tip in that direction.
Bill – Thanks for your input! Your YouTube link took me to Bachman Turner Overdrive "Let it Ride" ???
I've heard good things about the IBEX, however, if I'm not going to get a 'real' Defender, I'll just stick to my Rubicon. Haha I will definitely take you up on your offer to use your connections when the time comes. Thanks for that, it means a lot to me.
Matt H – This is why I'm starting to research and talk to you guys early on in the process. I'm sure it's going to take me awhile to find the right one too. I am willing to upgrade things like the heating etc. if necessary – but that's one reason I'm thinking of the Puma which has the better HVAC system in it. I would really like to tag along with you guys on a ride one day. Maybe someone with a 110 will allow me to drool over it for a while (I'll keep my mask on). When you say the stock station wagon front seats are comfortable, are you talking about the Pumas?
Anyway, so what I'm getting here is that it's hard to find a balance; when LR got better at one thing, they got worse at another. Pumas are more comfortable, but the drivetrain suffers. 300TDi is a fantastic engine, but the rest of the comfort suffers. Pumas moved to the all steel doors, so now you don't get the differing metal corrosion, but of course all steel means all rust around here! Really what I want to do is find the best bang for the buck, mostly a good foundation (frame, maintained drivetrain) and go from there. If I find the one I want, I plan on keeping it forever, so I can slowly customize other things like noise suppression, HVAC (if needed), maybe a better stereo (super low priority), maybe more comfortable seats if needed. You get the idea.
Thanks for your opinions, and inputs. Keep 'em coming! I need to start a pros and cons list. I sure do like the sound of the TD5... ;)
The Puma doors are fully galvanized, so don't rust.
Quote from: Red90 on June 17, 2020, 10:43 AM
The Puma doors are fully galvanized, so don't rust.
WHAAAAAATTTT????? That's good news... :o
You can also buy galvanized doors in any of the earlier styles as well or skins and repair pieces, so it is not something to get too hung up on. There are a lot more points of corrosion to watch out for. https://www.sp-4x4.com/category_s/108.htm
Early (pre-Defender) trucks were built better in this regard with the steel trim pieces being galvanized and using thicker aluminum. The galvanic corrosion got a lot worse with the newer trucks. The doors were the only area that eventually they improved something on the body.
I wonder if one were to buy a TD4, and had engine issues, would one take it to Land Rover, or Ford?? I wonder if they'd be cheaper or more costly than a traditional LR engine? You'd think it being a Ford it'd be fairly reasonable. I dunno...
I doubt either dealer would be able or willing to work on them as they were not sold here. Using the word cheaper in the same statement as a dealer is very humourous. One dealer trip would allow you to buy a set of tool and apprentice as a mechanic and come out ahead. If you are envisioning paying to get repairs done by a shop, this may not be the best choice of vehicle, IMO. Parts are cheap and they are easy to work on. Most owners learn how to become mechanics.
Off/on topic dealer rant. My boss has a two or three year old Dodge truck with a Cummins. It has no warranty because it was stolen, written off and then found undamaged. Anyway, a month after he buys it, the stud holding the grid heater falls off. It is sucked into the engine killing a cylinder and the turbo. This is a design fault that has been known for years and never fixed or recalled. The dealer repair estimate was $25000. Cummins does not care. Chrysler does not care.
I'm good with working on stuff. That was more of a question when life gets in the way and you have to get someone else to help in a pinch. I've never rebuilt a motor by myself or anything, but I do peripheral things (starters, alternators etc) and always one YouTube video away from tackling the next thing, and am a quick learner.
Sorry, that link was suppose to be https://www.ibexvehicles.com/ (https://www.ibexvehicles.com/) Don't short change this vehicle...it's mostly land rover but with a much improved body (built in roll cage) and seals well. They are highly regarded in the UK by the landy folk there. Kinda like aiming for a Range Rover but turning left ;D
I think as you are starting out, and as others have eluded to, it may be best to clearly define for yourself what you want to get out of the vehicle ownership.
As you might know, a vehicle is almost always an expense. There are some exceptions to that, but usually it's like driving around with your wallet out the window. As the saying goes, " if it's got tits or tyres, it's going to cost you ". I've spent plenty of money on both, I can assure you. ;)
If you're over 6'2 tall and looking for a tow truck for your large boat or large holiday trailer, I can't think of a stock 90/110 hardtop that is a good fit for that role.
The LR group generally keeps away from owning Toyota LC's, with some exceptions. The Toyota groups I've dealt with tend to hold their nose near a Land Rover too. I don't think a wrench cares much where the bolt was made, to be honest with you.
The two groups tend to attract different types of buyers. For the older LR's, the buyers are generally older and also more handy people. From what I have seen, many Toyota LC buyers may be younger, some may not be as hands-on, but not all.
I've heard it said once that the reason why there are so many different types of tyres is that there are many different types of buyers. In some ways like specialty dog food, made special and organic for the owner buying it, rather than for the dog.
A 90/110 may be the answer to your analysis, I don't know. If you're looking for a high-maintenance vehicle, easy to work on, with low OEM/aftermarket parts cost and little extensive steel body welding, maybe it's the choice for you. There are other competing makes out there to try as well, some at much lower initial cost than a 90/110.
Hey GR8PMKN!
I might be the local 110 TD5 owner that Res90
Is referring to. Happy to have you over for a check around once regulations permit? I also bought and imported mine from the UK (we were living there and it's my souvenir).
I have stories, some advice and a few little tips. Let's chat!
Quote from: ugly_90 on June 17, 2020, 03:24 PM
I think as you are starting out, and as others have eluded to, it may be best to clearly define for yourself what you want to get out of the vehicle ownership.
As you might know, a vehicle is almost always an expense. There are some exceptions to that, but usually it's like driving around with your wallet out the window. As the saying goes, " if it's got tits or tyres, it's going to cost you ". I've spent plenty of money on both, I can assure you. ;)
If you're over 6'2 tall and looking for a tow truck for your large boat or large holiday trailer, I can't think of a stock 90/110 hardtop that is a good fit for that role.
The LR group generally keeps away from owning Toyota LC's, with some exceptions. The Toyota groups I've dealt with tend to hold their nose near a Land Rover too. I don't think a wrench cares much where the bolt was made, to be honest with you.
The two groups tend to attract different types of buyers. For the older LR's, the buyers are generally older and also more handy people. From what I have seen, many Toyota LC buyers may be younger, some may not be as hands-on, but not all.
I've heard it said once that the reason why there are so many different types of tyres is that there are many different types of buyers. In some ways like specialty dog food, made special and organic for the owner buying it, rather than for the dog.
A 90/110 may be the answer to your analysis, I don't know. If you're looking for a high-maintenance vehicle, easy to work on, with low OEM/aftermarket parts cost and little extensive steel body welding, maybe it's the choice for you. There are other competing makes out there to try as well, some at much lower initial cost than a 90/110.
Thanks for the advice! I appreciate everyone making me go through the thought process on whether or not I should own one at all! I mean, in all practicality, I already have a perfectly functioning Rubicon that takes me where I need to go and is comfortable and practical, and the A/C and heater work, which is more than I can say about my AM/FM radio ;) etc. etc. Do I NEED a Defender? Of course not. Do I WANT one? Yes. First world problems here... :)
I still want to take your (everyone's) advice and sit in one again and go through it with an owner with all the pros and cons (@AdamCulligan?). It's either I decide to get one, or I don't, period. I'm not looking for another vehicle option. I already have the other option! haha What I'm trying to decide is which Defender model/engine to get and why. I'm not afraid to turn a wrench. I have other vehicles to use if that one is in pieces in my garage (like my Jeep is right now). My plan would be to use it for my dream of overlanding/exploring with it. I don't have a trailer or any intention of getting one, but if I ever got one it'd likely be little. I'd like to take the Defender everywhere, keep it forever, and probably have it parked in the garage over the winters (like my convertible and motorbike). If I buy one, I do want it to be a good one. I want it to last. I want to learn the ins and outs of it and be comfortable knowing how everything works.
Have you guys seen the The Crazy Hot Matrix on YouTube? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbpGkrViOcE If not, it's a funny watch. If you haven't seen it, it's referring to girls. The vertical side of the chart is how crazy they are, and the horizontal axis is how hot they are. I think for vehicles "crazy" could be replaced with unreliable/maintenance-heavy, and "hot" could be replaced with desirable vehicle. Where do you think a Defender fits on the chart?? ;)
Quote from: AdamCulligan on June 17, 2020, 05:28 PM
Hey GR8PMKN!
I might be the local 110 TD5 owner that Res90
Is referring to. Happy to have you over for a check around once regulations permit? I also bought and imported mine from the UK (we were living there and it's my souvenir).
I have stories, some advice and a few little tips. Let's chat!
YES PLEASE!! I'm sure I would learn a LOT from you. There's a guy in Bragg Creek that's selling a restored 1995 300TDi, and he said that he'd have me over soonish to check it out too. Sounds like someone from the US has a deposit on it. That's ok, I'm not ready yet, plus it's expensive. I just want to look. You guys might know him.
Quote from: GR8PMKN on June 17, 2020, 09:59 PM
There's a guy in Bragg Creek that's selling a restored 1995 300TDi, and he said that he'd have me over soonish to check it out too. Sounds like someone from the US has a deposit on it. That's ok, I'm not ready yet, plus it's expensive. I just want to look. You guys might know him.
This one? https://www.kijiji.ca/v-cars-trucks/calgary/restored-1995-land-rover-defender-110-300-tdi-turbo-diesel/1503078446
Expensive is an understatement. Be cautious with a lot of the very high asking prices you see these days. Most people are getting trucks for sane and realistic prices. He can't technically sell that to the US, so the buyer would be taking a big chance.
Beware the vehicle that was "rebuilt in the UK" as you can get either good work or REALLY crappy work, as we've seen this many times before. There are good, reputable shops there.....but there are way more that just want to put "lipstick on the pig" and sell it. Once it leaves the UK they have no care for what happens and you have little recourse.
Yes, that's the one. Looking on Kijiji and Autotrader, it appears that the condition of defender I'm looking for seems to hover around the $50k range. Is that still way too much in your opinion? I'm asking honestly. I mean, I think it's too much, but it is what it is. What I want to avoid is spending more to bring one up to spec, than I would have just buying one that is already up to spec. Know what I mean? I'm trying to learn where that cost line is drawn.
Quote from: binch on June 18, 2020, 08:52 AM
Beware the vehicle that was "rebuilt in the UK" as you can get either good work or REALLY crappy work, as we've seen this many times before. There are good, reputable shops there.....but there are way more that just want to put "lipstick on the pig" and sell it. Once it leaves the UK they have no care for what happens and you have little recourse.
I'll have to compile a list of good ones. Do you have any off the top of your head?
IMO, yes. A LHD 300TDI 110 in good, but unrestored condition is in the low 20s. This one with a galv chassis and rebuilt engine is worth more. $30k would be reasonable (to me) Add 5k for a TD5. Drop 5k for RHD. No 15 year old Defender is worth $50k. NAS trucks fetch a premium, but that is a special case.
Basically, figure out what it would cost to get one in Europe and add $5k for shipping plus a little for it being here.
Just be careful looking them over. With the aluminum skins, they can appear nice but be a pile of rust in all of the hard to see areas. Don't let people convince you that the steering is always loose and the brakes crappy. They should not be.
Ok, now we're talking. That range is much more reasonable. Thank you for that. So it seems that the importers (stealerships) are adding about $20k-ish and all the private sellers are following.
But now I'm back to the issue of going to Europe to find one, or through a reputable shop over there that's had a look for me. Or I can start low-balling the Canadian sellers...
I'm thankful for everyone's advice.
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YES PLEASE!! I'm sure I would learn a LOT from you. There's a guy in Bragg Creek that's selling a restored 1995 300TDi, and he said that he'd have me over soonish to check it out too. Sounds like someone from the US has a deposit on it. That's ok, I'm not ready yet, plus it's expensive. I just want to look. You guys might know him.
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Sounds good! I don't know the guy who is selling, but through other connections I heard about John Holt and was advised by someone I trust that they do sound work - not to say $70K is the right price, but it is also very likely the truck is in excellent shape.
I bought mine in the UK and was duped...only paid around $8k and around $6K to get it into the driveway...but ended up having to replace the chassis...UGH. A few folks on here helped me with it so the guidance comes from experts for sure. If it's no rush to check mine out, we can wait for the COVID stuff to relax and you can come round and take it for a drive. Mine is RHD btw.
Just as a point of reference you may find useful.
In 2016, if memory serves, I paid $25K for my 1998 300tdi R380 Defender 110 9 seat Station Wagon. It was sold to me by a fella in Winnipeg and I drove out to inspect and take it home. It's LHD originally from Germany/Holland so the speedometer is in KPH.
It was 100% stock with the exception of a Webasto engine preheater and upgraded headlights.
It had/has a few flaws but is quite tidy for an unrestored 22 year old vehicle.
If I had to buy the same one again today I'd expect to pay more, but not a huge amount more. The issue with all TDI units and very quickly the TD5 is the Americans. As soon as an importable vehicle hits the magic 25 year old mark you have lots and lots of well healed potential US buyers that drive the prices up. It's already happened with 110's and 200/early 300tdi Defenders. I also believe the emergence of the New Defender will only exacerbate this.
If I were in the market, especially for a nice stock TD5 110SW, I'd think about making my move sooner rather than later.
On a side note we owners can be a bit uncharitable when describing the Defenders shortcomings but for smiles per miles, adaptability, adventures and what I believe to be a truly unique and very friendly global community they just can't be beat!
Good luck!
Excellent discussion to follow along.
I'd like to bring a 110 pick up back to Canada one day, this info is really great.
Quote from: Matt H on June 18, 2020, 02:23 PM
On a side note we owners can be a bit uncharitable when describing the Defenders shortcomings but for smiles per miles, adaptability, adventures and what I believe to be a truly unique and very friendly global community they just can't be beat!
Isn't that the truth. That deal you got Matt was very uncommon occurrence that could only be wangled by Matt. He has the Budwiser team up is back side...he's that lucky!!!! He's a god in the landy procurement deal land 8)
Bringing one back from Europe is a good option but you have to have good contacts. But there are some good deals there to be made. I would avoid the RHD models though. The are just as easy to drive as a LHD, don't get me wrong. But they are VERY difficult to get full insurance on in many provinces and impossible to register in a couple. The resale value of a RHD landy is not goo either. So you may get one cheaper but....it's going to cost you in the end.
15 years ago you could have bought an older model 110 in the UK where someone had put on a galvanized chassis, lockers and a pile of other goodies. And you would have been able to get it for $10,000. From there you could ship it here for about $3500 and then have money left over to do all the repairs and mods you want locally where you stand a chance of getting a warranty. But those days aren't so common anymore.
You just have to know a guy...and I do hahahahhahahha
Is that guy Matt?? ;D
Seriously, I'm gonna remember that you know a guy! ;)
No....but he would be a good person to check it out or commissioned to find you something too.
Has anyone ever dealt with, or heard of dealings with importlandroverdefender.ca?
http://importlandroverdefender.ca/
In a way, it sounds too good to be true. I've been emailing back and forth a bit, and they say that you tell them what you want, they source it from the good places in Europe, they bring it over and repair/replace everything that needs doing (brakes, timing belts, clutch etc.), and you get to see it in person and make a decision before you buy it. If you don't like it, they refund your deposit, and then they just put it up for sale with the general public. They say that it doesn't do them any good to bring over lame ducks, because then the buyers won't buy them. Looks like they deal with Bespoke if you want anything custom too (which I can't afford).
Sounds like a good business model...
Thoughts?
Quote from: binch on June 19, 2020, 03:02 PM
No....but he would be a good person to check it out or commissioned to find you something too.
That's fantastic, Bill. The reason I'm here is to do things right the first time. We can chat more offline later. :)