Alberta Land Rover Enthusiasts Club Forum
General => Non Technical Discussion => Topic started by: Red90 on April 14, 2020, 01:52 PM
https://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?xID=70088C28614F7-F6F7-53A6-BE98E0D906D6556A&fbclid=IwAR31_3Y7ZXNGwzBXsFgp8PYW6nobLeNNVdmGyxKz4F4JFX48zDU9ccjPX74
QuoteA fire ban in the Forest Protection Area, provincial parks and protected areas, as well as a recreational OHV ban on Crown land in the Forest Protection Area, will come into effect April 15.
edit: OHV ban lifted for the time being.
Noted. You can't even drive into the recreation areas around here now, they're barricaded, marked as no access and no parking either. I don't know if you could hike or canoe in an area like Wilmore Wildness, or Kakwa Wilderness near here this spring, both areas may be closed. You might have someone drop you off? Even if you aren't breaking any laws, you might not get timely response from the local Search and Rescue, and lots of frowns and shame if you did call with trouble during a pandemic.
" don't come running to me with a broken leg... "
So is a land rover an OHV or not? Seems to change...
Quote from: headdamage on April 14, 2020, 02:02 PM
So is a land rover an OHV or not? Seems to change...
No, but I doubt that will stop you getting a fine and you would have no luck fighting it in court.
Quote from: ugly_90 on April 14, 2020, 02:01 PM
Noted. You can't even drive into the recreation areas around here now, they're barricaded, marked as no access and no parking either.
Yes, Parks and PRAs were closed to vehicles a couple of weeks ago. However, OHV use was still allowed (where permitted). This new order extents to forestry areas which is a big difference for us.
hmmmmm I'm wondering weather it would affect us using the Conklin winter road. As long as you are not burning a fire.....I can't see that as being illegal. And you can easily maintain safe space with people. ::)
By letter of the law, our LR's are not OHV's. But I'd agree with John, that probably won't stop you getting ticketed.
Couple options:
1) Bring a propane camp fire. Not a real camp fire, but it gives you something to sit around in the evening, and there are some decent options available.
2) Don't comply, go deep into the bush where they tend not to venture, and go armed for a fight. I like this option...a tad bit more risky mind you ;->
Edit: As an aside, if your MLA is UCP, call or write them and express your concern. If they receive enough push-back, they do note it. Not saying it will change anything. But this entire CCP virus response process is being driven by "experts"...doctors basically (and worse, doctors taking guidance from the WHO). Any public policy being made by a doctor unchecked is a bad thing at the best of times. Balance always needs to be introduced. That is the job of the politicians, and they aren't doing a good job of it insofar as their "close everything", anti-fun police approach. Very reminiscent of the old PC party actually.
You guys could just pay $50/ea and all get your prospecting licenses. Form a company, ALRE Minerals Inc, and go looking for medical-grade Uranium isotopes, or hip-replacement medical grade Titanium. All essential mining-medical services now.
If you need any help with Spicer-Hurth mining axles to bolt under your LR's, I know a guy who has a few :)
This is all getting a bit silly now. I mean if the sky keeps falling and gets any lower we are all going to have to learn to duck!
It seems to me that ever since the Y2K fiasco we've been blundering from one (social) media exaggerated chaotic mess to next.
Case in point, nobody is talking about climate change anymore. Now there is something new that will cause Armageddon!
We were told it's an emergency, a crisis even of extinction level consequences that requires immediate and drastic action, depending on who you listen to. But apparently not as important as a nasty flu so we mass manufacture disposable masks and gloves?
I don't have the COVID, but I am sick. Sick of the nonsense and hyperbole.
Quote from: ugly_90 on April 15, 2020, 12:10 PM
You guys could just pay $50/ea and all get your prospecting licenses. Form a company, ALRE Minerals Inc, and go looking for medical-grade Uranium isotopes, or hip-replacement medical grade Titanium. All essential mining-medical services now.
If you need any help with Spicer-Hurth mining axles to bolt under your LR's, I know a guy who has a few :)
I know a geologist if you wanted to have someone official looking on your company directors list ;-)
While I generally agree with the over hype of our media driven world it is hard to say things like mass graves in North America is in anyway normal.
(https://i0.wp.com/media.globalnews.ca/videostatic/news/lzdpkji4lk-up66wo5qzk/burialsweb.jpg?w=1040&quality=70&strip=all)
Some clarifications in order here.
Jason Nixon is your go to minister. He is from Rocky Mountain House. He is an outdoor enthusiast and does respond well to questions. You can also catch him on Facebook on regular basis.
The first order to stop going into recreation areas in the back country was from Parks. Going deep in trails with social distancing in the bush was accepted as long as you cleaned your garbage.
Second order came from Agriculture and Forestry: Complete access stop to prevent forest wild fires in April and May. Nothing is allowed to go in.
Camping in privately operated camp grounds is open as long as operators and campers complied with fire ban and other related regulations.
Driving old Conklin road may be a no since it's a trail and we are not industry. Commercial plated, company owned land rovers may go ahead...but ask first.
With Oil plants going into summer maintenance shutdowns, pressure on highways to the north maybe high. Kearl lake camp got three cases today and six are isolated waiting results. I can see the WoodBuffalo region becoming super strict.
So, put up with a backyard camping trip this Summer folks.
Cheers
I've seen the graves in the settlements up north on the Mackenzie Ice road from the 1918 influenza epidemic. As tire as I am of all the hype.....I don't want be contributing to making it worse. Especially with my asthma and Susan's recent heart deal. We are very well off compared to some. And even better off then those with no health coverage in some places.
But....the area I'm thinking off is on the access road up there and I'm just not sure. Maybe I'll ask with the forest service about the area and get some clarification. Hopefully they'll have some idea.
But here's are the rules as we know it:
https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/8259a745-2f34-427d-86e3-69fea634f20c/resource/5e3dd23c-7aa0-4015-a422-5172397ad976/download/aep-2020-fire-ban-system-approved-activities.pdf
And you don't want to be the one responsible for starting a fire right now. I don't think it would end well with the courts LOL
Conklin winter road is a seasonal road, not a trail. And historically was used by the residence of Conklin for access to LLB.
Quote from: B-Red on April 15, 2020, 09:24 PM
Some clarifications in order here.
So, put up with a backyard camping trip this Summer folks.
Cheers
Heh, yeah, that ain't gonna happen. Not a snowflakes chance in hell.
Fire threats are not high currently. If they start seeing drier conditions, I get the fire ban. But nothing to do with forest conditions is driving the current restriction. It's over reaction to the current bug. More importantly it won't eliminate fires or how they respond. They will still be battling the ones currently burning as well as the new ones that start up. And they will go about it the exact same way as if it were a man made fire. Volume doesn't matter here. Most importantly, volume uptick is driven by a combination of natural starts (lightning) and dry conditions. because when things get risky, we shut access down, and every fire after that is natural...and that is far and away most of the fires.
And they will stop none of those. And they will respond exactly as they are now, "social distancing" or not.
All they have done here is imprisoned people, usurped individual freedoms further, and simply made peoples lives a sh&t-ton more miserable. For 0 gain.
Now, I fully get Bill's point. He has personal reasons driving his decision that make a lot of sense for him and his family. There is a higher degree of risk there, and it is his personal choice to take steps to mitigate that. Personal choice. An important concept that is increasingly fleeting these days.
But me going camping along the east slopes with friends, who have also evaluated their situation and decided accordingly, is in no way a risk. In normal fire conditions we won't be starting a forest fire, period. The flu bug is hardly a menace out in the bush. And every stop along the way is currently controlled by plethora of restrictions.
Government overstepping its bounds is all this is.
Very interesting and scary news... They are including us in the OHV definition. This is from last year, but is a government statement, so I'm sure it relates to how they see it.
http://srd.web.alberta.ca/grande-prairie-area-update/fire-ban-in-effect-grande-prairie-area-update-may302019
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Here is the order: https://wildfire.alberta.ca/wildfire-status/documents/MinisterialOrder-007-2020.pdf
It does say off-highway vehicles and not vehicles off highway.
Seems like when it would be good to be an OHV we are not and when it is bad to be one we are.
Definition according to: TRAFFIC SAFETY ACT
117(a): %u201Coff-highway vehicle%u201D means any motorized mode of transportation built for crosscountry travel on land, water, snow, ice or marsh or swamp land or on other natural terrain
and, without limiting the generality of the foregoing, includes, when specifically designed
for such travel,
a) 4-wheel drive vehicles
b) low pressure tire vehicles
c) motorcycles and related 2-wheel vehicles
d) amphibious vehicles
e) all-terrain vehicles
f) miniature motor vehicles
g) snow vehicles
h) minibikes, and
i) any other means of transportation that is propelled by any power other then
muscular or wind (but does not include motor boats)
Note: For definition and restrictions that apply to miniature vehicles and minibikes, see the
prohibited miniature vehicles section.
15
Prohibited Operation: An off-highway vehicle may not be operated on any highway, road or ditch unless
permission has been expressly granted. In the case of a provincial highway, the Minister may by %u201Corder%u201D
or %u201Cpermit%u201D authorize such vehicles along any portion of a highway (Traffic Safety Act, Section
120(4)(a)(i) & (ii)). In the case of a municipality, the council of a municipality may, through bylaw,
authorize such vehicles along any portion of a highway (Traffic Safety Act, Section 120(
On another Gov site it says:
Alberta Traffic Act defines an OHV as a(an):
amphibious craft
dune buggies
off-road motorcycles
quads and trikes
snowmobiles
Trucks, jeeps and modified 4x4 vehicles may not be considered OHVs.
Section 117 A and E would appear to apply to any landrover driven offroad. The landrover would have been "built for crosscountry travel on land". A Nissan Sentra, less so.
Unless it is a wind powered or pedal-car landrover, you're fine there. A horse-drawn landrover, sans-engine and fuel, it may be compliant as well.
I don't know if Matlock would want to represent you in court after a steep fine against those sections of the law, but one could always try, I suppose. :o
Perhaps the rules are different for BC, but I don't expect they would be.
I still haven't seen anything about random compsites along road right of ways. :o So, can't see why I won't be able to use roads like the Conklin winter road or similar road in the Northeast. Stay off the trails and don't have a fire outside the regs for fires. That's not too bad by the sounds of it. But areas like the eastern slopes where everyone and their mothers go.....I can understand trying to curb some of the traffic there.
Right now the hazard is very low as the snows are still melting off and the ground isn't thawed or exposed. The duff moister code is barely readable right now so ground fires require napalm. Seems a bit early to call that closure. All that said....some mild winds combined with clear sky's and constant plus temperatures of 10 or more will eat up that snow pack pretty quick and they poplar/aspen turpentine fires will begin.
It'll be interesting to see what movement begins with the warm weather....like the packs of 30 cyclists we get through our neighborhood. If you need a hole through them...just cough a few times ::)
For a non-industrial user of a haul road, you won't require a user agreement. I've never seen road bans for under 1 ton trucks, and landrovers might be 1/4 ton?
I would assume, after the seasonal commercial traffic is off, a winter road would be 'closed', but we don't have any roads near here like that. On an 'open' road, like the FTR, I suppose you might sleep in your truck at a pullout along the road to sleep, as the truckers do. It might be dusty if there's other traffic. At present, groups would need to be less than 15 people?
The Fort Chipewan winter road closed on March 26, and access to all vehicles is now strictly prohibited.
http://www.rmwb.ca/Municipal-Government/municipal_departments/Public-Operations/Roads/Winter-Roads.htm
Am interested in achieving the following:
It seems that between few of us here, we uncovered few legislations that define OHVs. However they don't seem to be uniform.
Would you be kind to identify a list of where each definition came from by adding the web link to it. I think it would be a worth while effort to present the government with a request to adapt one standard definition that gets used by all ministries.
I will be happy to work on this if you provide me with the list!
Quote from: B-Red on April 16, 2020, 06:19 PM
Am interested in achieving the following:
It seems that between few of us here, we uncovered few legislations that define OHVs. However they don't seem to be uniform.
Would you be kind to identify a list of where each definition came from by adding the web link to it. I think it would be a worth while effort to present the government with a request to adapt one standard definition that gets used by all ministries.
I will be happy to work on this if you provide me with the list!
I would strongly recommend not doing that. In this over-reactive environment, where we are all the "boogey man" and must be locked away, I would wager that the outcome would be in direct opposition to what we are after, or anything that incorporates common sense.
That said, there's an obvious requirement in the Traffic Safety Act that makes it pretty much impossible for any normal road driven 4x4 to be classified as an OHV. And it is ultimately why the references on the government websites that headdamage provided earlier are not at all contradictory. The last statement that trucks et al may not be classified as OHV's is in fact correct imo.
And that is consistent with the Act when you read the entirety of the requirements...albeit in a bureaucratic gobbly-gook sort of way :).
Moreover, it is also consistent with much of their current PLUZ definitions which specifically exclude 4x4's from the OHV classification.
I won't go into it here as this is an open forum to the public, and I really don't want to go into details...what the Act allows and what the current PC era governance style wants could possibly be 2 different things. But suffice it to say I would have no concerns at all using the Traffic Safety Act as my backstop to show that my LR's are not OHV's. And I can provide almost limitless examples of government actions that back that up as well.
...and if they stick with their "the sky is falling" destroy all personal liberties approach to crisis management through the spring and into summer, I can pretty much guarantee I'll get a chance to put this to the test in courts, at which point we will know for sure.
Note: This is in reference to the Traffic Safety Act, not the temporary order they put in place during the dry fire ban period last spring.
So I contacted the minister's office to get clarification on the definition of OHV. Their current response indicates that they do not know. :)
They said they will get back to me once they talk to others that may know.
I should add that they rescinded the order banning OHV access and said they are going to regionally implement based on when the snow melts.
Here is a newer poster.
One way or another it seems to me the events and restrictions over the last several years were always headed in this direction anyway. Today they are calling it a "fire" ban. Sure, ok. ::)
I haven't seen the extended forecast yet but I noticed today that the blackmud creek is at peak!!! I'll be if I were to go down to a bridge on Saturday I'd see a few kayaks or canoes paddling down it. We've had three days of plus 9 highs with those steady breezes I was mentioning. And the ice is breaking up on the big bodies of water. If this keeps up I'm sure we'll have a "make work fire" (gasoline started) before the end of the month. Now....just keep your eyes on the poplar buds ;)
Susan received a government info package showing the spread of the bug over the past couple months and with Albertas thin population we are doing pretty well. But Saskatoon is doing better, and Manitoba is really doing well with the lower numbers. Maybe a trip up to Otter Rabids or for some fishing if we can get in and it's good to do so. I guy can always dream..... ::)
I couldn't quite figure out the root of the governments extremism and idiocy on this one...well, let me re-phrase that, I couldn't figure out how they were piling on 100k first offense penalties for violators. Government idiocy is generally really easy to figure out.
It's Bill 10. I didn't know this little act of tyranny was passed back on April 2. Here's some details...
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/john-carpay-albertas-bill-10-is-an-affront-to-the-rule-of-law
...and that's where the extremist idiocy of this ban spawned from.
Soooo, what ever existed of the Wildrose party from their merger with the PC's looks like it has been driven out. Bill 10 is about as draconian as things get, and very reminiscent of the old PC mindset. I never liked the idea of the parties merging for this very reason, I really feared the PC's taking over and a return to the bad old days (yeah, I was one of the 5% that voted against it :->).
Hehe, tyranny arises under the guise of a nasty flu bug.
Yep. They are passing bills without debate now. Ministerial orders with no review. Our own personal dictatorship.
aka J.C. Kenny and his blow it up ur arse sunshine band! >:(
I am copying this from a post by Safari Club International-Red Deer District. This was based on a meeting they had With the Minister.
2. Fires ban and ATV ban is gone and will only be brought back in specific areas if hazard exists
The majority of fires are started end of April to end of May. He stated with limited access to out of province fire fighters we don't want to have a issue with fires the province can't handle. I sure appreciate that.
3. Bill 10 was a small change to a existing bill that only allowed The province to give fines to people that were traveling and didn't self quarantine for the 14 days. The part in the health act that allows government officials to come into your home without a warrant was 30-40 years old and had nothing to do with this government.
The ability to drive up on trails were allowed is back. However fire bans still in effect.
https://www.jccf.ca/alberta-government-gives-itself-sweeping-new-powers-to-create-new-laws-without-legislative-assembly-approval/
Quote from: B-Red on April 20, 2020, 06:38 PM
I am copying this from a post by Safari Club International-Red Deer District. This was based on a meeting they had With the Minister.
2. Fires ban and ATV ban is gone and will only be brought back in specific areas if hazard exists
The majority of fires are started end of April to end of May. He stated with limited access to out of province fire fighters we don't want to have a issue with fires the province can't handle. I sure appreciate that.
3. Bill 10 was a small change to a existing bill that only allowed The province to give fines to people that were traveling and didn't self quarantine for the 14 days. The part in the health act that allows government officials to come into your home without a warrant was 30-40 years old and had nothing to do with this government.
The ability to drive up on trails were allowed is back. However fire bans still in effect.
#2 and your last statement partially contradict each other....with the fire ban
Bill 10....small change? Ok Toto....let's follow the yellow brick road to OZ were the great wizard will make things all peachy and roses now LOL ::)
Quote from: B-Red on April 20, 2020, 06:38 PM
3. Bill 10 was a small change to a existing bill that only allowed The province to give fines to people that were traveling and didn't self quarantine for the 14 days. The part in the health act that allows government officials to come into your home without a warrant was 30-40 years old and had nothing to do with this government.
I generally don't mind it when folks tow party lines. Most subject matter does fit within political ideological parameters that define peoples view of government.
But there are limits to that and always should be. Fundamental rights and freedoms and functioning democratic institutions are what underpin our society. Infringements upon them by ANY government need to be called out regardless of party. Bill 10 is absolutely an example of that.
Read it. Completely. There is nothing in this Bill that is a "small change."
I wanted to clarify the SCI in not affiliated with any political party. It's more towards promoting hunting and outdoorsman sports. It does carry conservative views however both here and the US.
Quote from: binch on April 20, 2020, 10:44 PM#2 and your last statement partially contradict each other....with the fire ban
The Minister of Agriculture and Forestry rescinded the OHV ban order and stated that he would phase in the bans as soon as the snow cover has melted in each area. He made no public announcement about this beyond a Facebook post. The order itself simply vanished from the government's page. Fire bans are still in place (different minister and different order).
Quote from: B-Red on April 21, 2020, 06:32 AM
I wanted to clarify the SCI in not affiliated with any political party. It's more towards promoting hunting and outdoorsman sports. It does carry conservative views however both here and the US.
Trophy Hunters.....aka glorified poachers. 8)
Coming from British stock one likely hales from a long line of poachers due to the common man not having legal hunting rights in the good old days. Not to defend trophy poaching but the odd rabbit to toss in the pot is ok. I'm wondering if poaching for meat might become a thing here as the year goes on.
Who are called poachers?
A poacher is someone who breaks the law to hunt or fish. ... Someone who captures wild animals illegally is also a poacher
On the other hand
Trophy hunting is the selective hunting of a particular wild game animal, usually older males, because that particular animal has a desirable characteristic, such as large antlers/horns. ... Normally, trophy hunters target older animals that may be past breeding age.
So, completely different
One is considered legal because they get a "permit" and pay enormous sums of money, for the right to high grade the stock all for the purpose of putting a stuffed head on a wall and pounding their chest. A person can do the same thing with a camera and the best part of it is many people can put a picture of the magnificent beast on their walls.
It can be justified a million ways to sunday but it all comes down to serving no other purpose then to inflate an individual's.
Don't get me wrong...I'm not against hunting. But there are good hunters who use almost all of the animal and will cull from any age group. And then there are the questionable hunters just want to blow something away for the sake of hearing their gun go bang, from a good safe distance. >:(
I took two trophy does last year, good eating.
I got a response from the minister's office.
QuoteRecreational OHV Restriction
What changes have been made to the recreational OHV restriction?
There is currently no OHV Ban in Alberta.
We will be monitoring conditions regionally and will reintroduce OHV restrictions, only if necessary.
While wildfire prevention remains our highest priority, current weather conditions in the Forest Protection Area mean the fire danger level is currently low.
Albertans can continue to enjoy using their off-highway vehicles, including snow machines, on public land in the Forest Protection Area until conditions change.
Future updates can be found here: https://www.albertafirebans.ca/
What can I do to increase safety while driving an OHV?
Please remember, even when you are permitted to use an off-highway vehicle, it is important to maintain fire safety awareness.
It is crucial to stop and check off-highway vehicles for debris and the ground for any debris that may have fallen.
Before you ride, clean any debris that has built up near the exhaust and muffler, under the seat, in wheel wells and around the engine.
Always carry a small fire extinguisher, a collapsible shovel and water. These tools can help extinguish a wildfire and safely dispose of hot debris.
Who can I talk to if I'm unsure if there's an OHV restriction in place?
Off-highway vehicle restrictions in the Forest Protection Area will be reintroduced if there is an increase in the hazard level, and that will be communicated in the affected area.
If you have questions about whether you may use an off-highway vehicle, call 1 (866) FYI-FIRE or visit albertafirebans.ca.
What is an OHV?
An "off-highway vehicle" is a motorized vehicle designed to go beyond defined roadways, including but not limited to:
• Snow machines;
• Quads;
• Side by sides;
• Dirt bikes;
• 4x4 Jeeps;
• Pick-up trucks; or
• Sport utility vehicles.
Thank you John for following up with the minister. This is clear. Now we can have a reasonable summer.
I don't think "Jeeps" is a legal term.
Quote from: headdamage on April 23, 2020, 02:29 PM
I don't think "Jeeps" is a legal term.
;D
Now that I think about it Jeep is a registered trade mark and is legally protected such that it can not be applied to non-Jeep products.
Quote from: Red90 on April 23, 2020, 02:45 PM
Quote from: headdamage on April 23, 2020, 02:29 PM
I don't think "Jeeps" is a legal term.
;D
So, if I had a 2wd Jeep that would be totally cool and I can go anywhere I like?
Pull the front drive shaft and engage the diff lock , add Jeep Badge and you will be good to go
Quote from: headdamage on April 22, 2020, 10:39 PM
I took two trophy does last year, good eating.
But you took the meat home to eat. Good on ya! Just don't waste anything. ;)
Quote from: headdamage on April 23, 2020, 03:34 PM
Now that I think about it Jeep is a registered trade mark and is legally protected such that it can not be applied to non-Jeep products.
Provincial parks and land opening back to vehicles this weekend.
QuoteAlberta Parks' online campground reservation system will open on May 14 for bookings at select campground starting June 1 onward.
This is good news :D
Quote from: binch on April 30, 2020, 09:46 PM
This is good news :D
We will see if that is true after this weekend.
Quote from: binch on April 30, 2020, 09:46 PM
This is good news :D
This is what will cause the biggest issues.
QuoteFacility closures, including toilets, playgrounds, picnic shelters, etc., in provincial parks remain in place at this time.
I guess there is no money in Alberta tourism and nobody camps here anymore >:(
https://www.rmotoday.com/kananaskis-country/alberta-government-to-close-privatize-campgrounds-2134526 (https://www.rmotoday.com/kananaskis-country/alberta-government-to-close-privatize-campgrounds-2134526)
Quote from: binch on May 01, 2020, 06:37 PM
I guess there is no money in Alberta tourism and nobody camps here anymore >:(
https://www.rmotoday.com/kananaskis-country/alberta-government-to-close-privatize-campgrounds-2134526 (https://www.rmotoday.com/kananaskis-country/alberta-government-to-close-privatize-campgrounds-2134526)
Many of what they are closing are extremely popular. There are are other motives at play. Saving a few pennies is not one of them.
Quote from: Red90 on May 01, 2020, 06:49 PM
There are are other motives at play. Saving a few pennies is not one of them.
Oh you got that right!!!!! They are getting ready to outsource all kinds of stuff.....Looks good on paper when you only have 5 people in government seats, but you'll pay so much more by the back door. MOVES was a very good example of that. Send it out to contract and pay 10x more.
Fire ban has been lifted.
ahhahha I forgot it was even on ;D