Alberta Land Rover Enthusiasts Club Forum
General => Technical Discussions => Topic started by: 88Hillman on June 17, 2019, 04:56 PM
Guys,
Since the last time the 88" was out in the wild both of the Optima batteries perished.
Previously the battery box contained a D34/78 Yellow top and D34M Blue top.
(https://buy.optimabatteries.com/8114/6349/2484/OPTIMA_YT_D34-78_Right.png)
(https://buy.optimabatteries.com/2914/6349/0970/OPTIMA_BT-D34M-Right.png)
It was very tight in there, with very heavy cables connecting batteries to power the vehicle as well as the winch with a nifty solenoid setup to partition the 2 when voltage got too low and risked ability to start the vehicle.
Now that it's a fresh start, if you will, I'm looking for suggestions. I've not heard about the quality of current Optima products, but the Bluetop failed, taking with it the Yellow top.
Being in the cab between driver and passenger an AGM seems like a great idea for safety.
For the heck of it I got a quote on Odyssey batteries... and they are still very expensive for group 34 size. In the distant past I've heard of guys using smaller size Odyssey batteries as they have a higher output per size than conventional batteries.
Any thoughts or feedback are appreciated.
Cheers,
Kirk
Although not helical-wound, Canadian Tire Motomaster Ultra AGM for deep cycle applications.
Made by Northstar in the US, and relabeled for here.
The Optima batteries have had rumors of early failure and quality issues after they moved the plant to Mexico. Optima was bought by Johnson Controls?
I have seen Exide helical-wound as well.
I run red top and yellow top on my Disco and my defender. The Disco is daily driver. Batteries run well. Had them on their forth year now.
The defender set did not hold charge as it is occasional use. Note though, these batteries when they discharge the regular chargers don't see them or recharge them. You have to connect it to another dc source or batteries and watch the voltage rise. Once you reach over 9 -10 volt the charger will kick in and charge them up. I use the Optima charger for them. Works great.
Emad
Looking at the Northstar NSB-AGM27F, it looks exactly like the Motomaster Eliminator Ultra XD. The only spec listed also matches so its5plausible these are still the same battery.
I'm thinking about just buying one massive battery if one can be found to fit.
For something you aren't using on a regular basis, I wouldn't recommend the Optima's. As noted above, since they moved production to Mexico, the quality followed and went south as well. I think they're ok if it's a daily driver and receiving a constant charge. However if they are sitting for any period of time (30 days +), you need to charge them. I've had several fail in my LR's over the last many years. Currently the yellow top in my D2 needs replacing, and it will be with a different brand.
Hi Kirk,
You know me and electricery.....I'm a dumb arse!!! I had two of the crappy tire marine coil gel batteries in my 110 for 12 years and they did pretty good for me. But this year they were starting to perish so I bit the bullet and bought two of the Northstar batteries as replacements. I spoke to the fellas at Saskbattery.com and they gave me a break on the batteries. I got two NSB-AGM65 and they gave me 8% off (not much but it was a good enough deal to take it). I almost needed a shoe horn to fit them in but they ARE in now and I'm happy with them.
From what I was reading they rated as one of the top two batteries too......
A good choice for me.....
Happy hunting...
Always run a battery charger for these vehicles that sit. It is the only way to get good life. I'm running some group 24 Dual purpose marine Exide AGMs but I'm not that happy as they seem to be losing capacity after a few years.
They are taller than the 34s so may not fit. You could always go to a single battery.
John,
The group 24 batteries may or may not fit depending on the particular manufacturer and the shape near the bottom. Some of the Northstar seem to have reduced length at the bottom which should make them fit.
I was looking at the largest single battery that would fit in the box too. There seem to be options that way. This would be less complicated in some respects with fewer failure modes but at a cost of reserve capacity.
What other AGM makes would be recommended?
When I was looking for my batteries the top three listed were Northstar, Odessey, and optima...in that order. But they said the Optima came a distant 3rd because some bit of info was missing....I just can't remember what. ::)
Quote from: 88Hillman on June 18, 2019, 10:18 PM
John,
The group 24 batteries may or may not fit depending on the particular manufacturer and the shape near the bottom. Some of the Northstar seem to have reduced length at the bottom which should make them fit.
I was looking at the largest single battery that would fit in the box too. There seem to be options that way. This would be less complicated in some respects with fewer failure modes but at a cost of reserve capacity.
What other AGM makes would be recommended?
Kirk, I may have some info after this weekend that could help. As I mentioned above I have to replace my yellow top Optima in my D2, that's one of my projects this weekend. I have a dual battery setup in it with 0 extra room for a larger battery. Whatever I find as a replacement, it has to be no larger than the Optima. I'll post here what I find...if anything.
I explored the Odyssey batteries. They come in two sizes. Unlike the red and yellow tops, they do both functions under one battery. This eliminates the need for two batteries. I am considering going that root for my defender. The only issue is controlling battery drain for auxiliary loads while engine is off.
Emad
Trevor, thanks for the help.
Emad, the Odyssey line are very expensive but I was considering a larger single battery which could eliminate the charge balancing issue as well as the tight fit. I think group 31 would fit nicely.
Odyssey 31M-925 or 31M-PC2150 may be the answer. The latter probably costs as much as 2 Optima batteries.
https://www.amazon.com/Odyssey-Battery-31M-PC2150/dp/B06XBCLL8G#
Or Northstar from Canadian tire:
https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/motomaster-nautilus-ultra-xd-group-31-high-performance-agm-deep-cycle-battery-0103196p.html#srp
I haven't done the final measurements in the D2 to confirm it will fit but this is the battery I am leaning towards as a first option...
https://www.batterymart.com/p-odyssey-34m-pc1500st-battery.html
Length is the dimension I need to nail down as it is slightly longer than the Yellow top Optima. Ultimately I would hope to replace both Optima's with these. It is really tough finding battery options to shoe-horn into a D2. If its a smidge to long I will likely modify the tray and be done with it as I think I will have room to add another 1".
The MotoMasters I do not think are an option as they all appear to be too tall.
Odyssey is not a brand that I have used before, but it gets very good and reviews. It is also made in USA, which is important for me.
I've always used matching batteries in parallel.
Quote from: headdamage on June 20, 2019, 11:31 AM
I've always used matching batteries in parallel.
Yes. That is perhaps the most important if longevity is expected. Same brand, same spec and same age. I've seen Costco batteries last 12 years and expensive batteries last 6 months.
If your batteries are discharging when not in use then you have an unwanted drain that needs to be fixed before you go shopping for a battery that can handle being run down countless times. If you can't pin point it or just too lazy (like me) fit a disconnect.
I always have good luck with Optima batteries.
My 2c.
Quote from: Matt H on June 20, 2019, 04:24 PM
If your batteries are discharging when not in use then you have an unwanted drain that needs to be fixed before you go shopping for a battery that can handle being run down countless times. If you can't pin point it or just too lazy (like me) fit a disconnect.
I always have good luck with Optima batteries.
My 2c.
I certainly haven't had that experience with my Optimas. Mind you I DID see that kind of quality with my older Optima's built before their Mexico manufacturing move.
Currently Both my Defender and D2 use Optima's, and neither has any wayward power draws. I like to compare the Optima's ability to hold a charge with my stock F350 batteries.
If I leave the D2 or Defender for 30 days without charging, they'll be either dead (if they are not new) or pretty heavily drawn down (if they are relatively new). That's with new Optima's or old as I've cycled through about 4 over the last few years.
My F350 sits for the summer. Between the start of May when I return from Moab, and late Sept (assuming I return to Moab in the fall) the vehicle sits. It might get driven a couple times. 0 problems with the stock Ford batteries.
What's even more interesting is I have never put the Ford batteries on a trickle charger to maintain them (yes, I should, I agree) whereas I constantly do that with the Optima's...and if I forget and leave them too long, they show it.
That's my experience with them.
I use a 2A CT smartcharger to maintain my batteries when not in use, a cutoff switch helps as well.
Having smaller loads that are battery switched helps in management too.
I've installed a " ChargeGuard " timed relay on police cars in the past it was switch programmable for maybe 0.5 to 10 hours, and would connect a constant load for only that long after the engine was off. I've never seen them fail.
I think they're good for up to 30A, about $80 US? Good for connecting fridges, radios, etc.
Welp, my shopping this weekend didn't generate any new options for the D2. If you are space constrained, the Optima and Odyssey were the only options I could find. Worth noting, for the D2 the dimension that knocked a lot of batteries out of the running was height. There's a decent number of batteries out there with length/width close to the Optima that would work. But the Odyssey was the only other option that was small and squat enough for a dual use.
If you're in any of the other LR's I don't think you will have as much of a height restriction. That will open up a fair number of options.
I charged the batteries on the bench and left them unconnected at the bench. The red top drains just setting. Regular lead acids stay just fine. So I suspect just the technology.
The only advantage with the Odyssey is the size compactness. Otherwise, the regular shelve items are just the same!
You have some internal resistance on that red top? What voltage does it charge to? Discharge on it's own to? Do you have a load tester? You can't measure specific gravity on an SLA.
Quote from: ugly_90 on June 24, 2019, 05:30 PM
You have some internal resistance on that red top? What voltage does it charge to? Discharge on it's own to? Do you have a load tester? You can't measure specific gravity on an SLA.
I am using the Optima charger. Red top went down to zero in less than a month just setting on bench after full charge. Can't pass 50%.
The unit was connected to a digital trickle charger while outside before. Then it failed.
I don't encounter such problem with regular batteries
Quote from: B-Red on June 24, 2019, 05:26 PM
I charged the batteries on the bench and left them unconnected at the bench. The red top drains just setting. Regular lead acids stay just fine. So I suspect just the technology.
The only advantage with the Odyssey is the size compactness. Otherwise, the regular shelve items are just the same!
Emad, you lost me on your comment about the Odyssey performing the same as the Optima. Did you test both the Odyssey and Optima, or just the Optima?
Quote from: Trevor on June 25, 2019, 10:02 AM
Quote from: B-Red on June 24, 2019, 05:26 PM
I charged the batteries on the bench and left them unconnected at the bench. The red top drains just setting. Regular lead acids stay just fine. So I suspect just the technology.
The only advantage with the Odyssey is the size compactness. Otherwise, the regular shelve items are just the same!
Emad, you lost me on your comment about the Odyssey performing the same as the Optima. Did you test both the Odyssey and Optima, or just the Optima?
Just the Optima. I don't have Odyssey yet
I have my doubts that branding or technology are factors here. You should be measuring 2.1-2.2v per cell on your lead acid battery after charging, so 12.6 - 13.2V, after a full charge and leaving it for a hour, if need be.
A battery load tester will show you this open circuit voltage, as will a digital multimeter. Either are available on sale from time to time for less than $40.
I expect you have a sulfated old battery, regardless of make. Some batteries can't be discharged fully, and I haven't seen many survive long that were fully discharged and then frozen in the cold. That one will murder a battery too. Many luxury or recreational vehicles suffer from batteries that aren't fully charged then used, as can solar installations around here.
I'll add a shameless plug for "battery doctor" in southside Edmonton. A small fleet of northern 4x4's in Grande Prairie run on their affordable reconditioned used batteries. Lol. $50 goes a long way there.
So...back on topic. Kirk, my good man....have you come to any decisions on your battery yet??? :D
Quote from: B-Red on June 25, 2019, 05:50 PM
Quote from: Trevor on June 25, 2019, 10:02 AM
Quote from: B-Red on June 24, 2019, 05:26 PM
I charged the batteries on the bench and left them unconnected at the bench. The red top drains just setting. Regular lead acids stay just fine. So I suspect just the technology.
The only advantage with the Odyssey is the size compactness. Otherwise, the regular shelve items are just the same!
Emad, you lost me on your comment about the Odyssey performing the same as the Optima. Did you test both the Odyssey and Optima, or just the Optima?
Just the Optima. I don't have Odyssey yet
Ok, you said Odyssey in your testing post, and you had mentioned owning Optima's prior to that. Hence why I was confused
Yes, Emad has a dead battery for whatever reason. It is not really a statement on the brand. All batteries can be killed. Personally, I'm leaning more using dual purpose marine flooded batteries. Costco does nice ones in 24 and 27 sizes. They are half the cost of any AGM and I'm not seeing any benefits. The main thing with lead acid is to not let them deep discharge. They can't take it. Battery chargers are cheaper than one battery.
"Battery chargers are cheaper than one battery."
Yes!!!! So are cut off switches.
That does not help though for trucks that sit and is a pain with any electronics that want constant power.
Quote from: Lightningpower on June 26, 2019, 12:05 PM
"Battery chargers are cheaper than one battery."
Yes!!!! So are cut off switches.
For a D2, I don't think that I'd want a cutoff switch.
Finding a good battery and maintaining it should do the trick.
I'm now solidly leaning toward just getting the Canadian Tire branded Northstar Group 31.
It avoids the dual charge complications, space challenges as well as relatively low cost for dual purpose start/deep cycle capability.
It also has a much greater reserve than any other single battery option I've seen that fits in the FFR battery box.
The priority is finishing work on the LR3 before the Southern Rockies trip. Once that LR is up to snuff I'll start focussing on the Series and pick up the battery.
Cheers,
Kirk
This ended up being the direction I went. The battery is sitting in the battery box now but it's not connected or held down yet. There is almost no clearance between the top posts and battery cover so some modification will need to be made.
Let me say that it is one heavy battery!
Cheers,
KirkQuote from: 88Hillman on June 26, 2019, 01:05 PM
I'm now solidly leaning toward just getting the Canadian Tire branded Northstar Group 31.
It avoids the dual charge complications, space challenges as well as relatively low cost for dual purpose start/deep cycle capability.
It also has a much greater reserve than any other single battery option I've seen that fits in the FFR battery box.
The priority is finishing work on the LR3 before the Southern Rockies trip. Once that LR is up to snuff I'll start focussing on the Series and pick up the battery.
Cheers,
Kirk
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