Alberta Land Rover Enthusiasts Club Forum
General => Non Technical Discussion => Topic started by: binch on September 27, 2017, 10:33 AM
Some very interesting news....
8)I got an email today from the far side of the pond shedding light on a rumour that's been bouncing around for the past couple of years. This group was very interested in maintaining the old Defender vehicle (sort of) and wanted to keep building something along those lines. What peaked my interest was the company (INEOS) what where Susan's uncle had worked in the UK. Here's the email:
"Hi Bill, I'd like to share this with you, especially the possibility to help choose a name for this INEOS off road vehicle. My guess is that you and other Alberta Land Rover enthusiasts are probably up to date on what's happening. It would be great to have some input from you and suggestions for a name. I saw a good collection of Defenders in Italy during my holiday there over the last week. I rowed down the Ligurian coast. A little equivalent to the nautical version of off road touring! Regards, Andy
--------------------------------------------
Subject: INEOS Automotive now established and making great progress
Dear all, As you will have heard from our announcements earlier this year, the INEOS Automotive business, now firmly established, is making great progress with our project to create a new, uncompromising 4x4 honouring the rugged spirit of the original offroaders.
First internally called Projekt Grenadier (Projekt for our German-influenced engineering, Grenadier for the pub the idea was born in), the name seems to have stuck- and we've decided to come out and share the journey of developing the car with our employees and the general public.
The new Projekt Grenadier website (www.projektgrenadier.com) and social channels (Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and YouTube- all linked from the site), launched this week, and will open a window on the process of bringing our car to life. We will introduce the team, share the project's latest news, show glimpses of the design, engineering & manufacturing processes, and ask experts and enthusiasts to pitch in with their ideas for features, designs, and even names for the vehicle.
With a multi-skilled workforce of over 18,000 employees across INEOS, the new Automotive team are keen to hear the views of keen drivers across our sites and businesses as a key priority. Whether you are already a 4x4 owner, or just interested in our journey- we would love to have your input. As well as visiting the site and following the social channels, we invite you to take part in an employee survey to share your views on the shaping of the vehicle- which you are welcome to also share with interested family and friends.
https://projektgrenadier.typeform.com/to/bwvla7
Many thanks, and we look forward to sharing further details on the off-roading adventure soon.
Tom Crotty
INEO Automotive"
https://www.ineos.com/businesses/ineos-automotive/ (https://www.ineos.com/businesses/ineos-automotive/)
That sounds great!
Sounds expensive, but could be great.
Very nice to see a company taking on this challenge. I also like the fact that they are inspired by truly great off road vehicles as well...Jeep, Land Cruiser, and early Land Rovers. Taking inspiration from those 3 "greats" could lead to a really capable/practical 4 x 4.
Sooooo....get on with it guys! We're waiting! *tap tap tap*
ROFL......
https://www.motoring.com.au/plan-to-bring-back-defender-gets-benz-backing-111122/
It is real!
Quote from: Red90 on March 01, 2018, 05:26 PM
https://www.motoring.com.au/plan-to-bring-back-defender-gets-benz-backing-111122/
It is real!
Holy crap! That's great news!
This guy owns the chemical plant just down the road from the cottage ;)
;D
MBtech to do engineering on Grenadier (starting spring this year with prototype by end of 2018) while design will be done in UK. Location
https://projektgrenadier.com/mbtech-engineering-partner/ (https://projektgrenadier.com/mbtech-engineering-partner/)
https://projektgrenadier.com/#watch (https://projektgrenadier.com/#watch)
Quote from: binch on June 19, 2018, 04:53 PM
;D
MBtech to do engineering on Grenadier (starting spring this year with prototype by end of 2018) while design will be done in UK. Location
https://projektgrenadier.com/mbtech-engineering-partner/ (https://projektgrenadier.com/mbtech-engineering-partner/)
https://projektgrenadier.com/#watch (https://projektgrenadier.com/#watch)
Design to remain in the UK! Sweet!
I was worried that their replacement Defender would be ergonomically inviting, comfortable over long trips, well sealed from the elements, and full of wizzy electronics and gadgetry. But with the Brits looking after it we're safe! She'll be rough around the edges, as complicated as a thimble, engineered with tolerances +/- 3/4"....JUST like we like em!
I'm quite jazzed. ;D
No, no... Design by Brits, engineering by Germans.....
Aww Crap! Nobody does "unnecessarily complicated" like the Germans.
:) those crafty Germans and Japanese.. " to win at cars, one must first lose at war.. " - Jeremy Clarkson, Top Gear.
https://www.autoblog.com/2019/03/18/ineos-projekt-grenadier-4x4-bmw-engine/
So, BMW engines. That should keep the reliability inline with Defender history. ;D
Hopefully inline 6s. That is the only engine configuration that should be ever considered.
Quote from: Red90 on March 27, 2019, 08:23 AM
https://www.autoblog.com/2019/03/18/ineos-projekt-grenadier-4x4-bmw-engine/
So, BMW engines. That should keep the reliability inline with Defender history. ;D
Hehe, yep, that minimize the shock for old Defender owners.
https://ineosgrenadier.com/the-vehicle?utm_source=&utm_medium=&utm_campaign=&utm_source=&utm_medium=&utm_campaign=
The Grenadier will be an uncompromising 4x4 that works for the world. It will be a no-frills utilitarian vehicle. A working tool for farmers, foresters, explorers and aid workers.
We plan to reveal the Grenadier next year.
We are well advanced in the development stage. Early prototypes are already being tested in the most demanding conditions.
The Grenadier is in development, and we're not yet ready to take the covers off. But we can give you some pointers on what to expect. A ladder chassis. Permanent four-wheel drive. Beam axles. Class-leading towing and payload capacity, with power and torque to match. Wrapped in a stripped back, boxy 4x4 body.
DURABILITY
The Grenadier will be a resilient and robust 4X4. Built using only the best component parts, by world-renowned engineers.
UTILITY
A working tool. More angles than curves. Function dictates form, every time.
CAPABILITY
To take on all terrains. A vehicle that can withstand the daily punishment you put it through.
As most can probably tell I am really trying hard to like the New Defender for what it is (a Discovery).
But this Grenadier just sounds so good that it is impossible not to like it already and nobody has even seen it yet!
I love the comment about filling that gap that's been left in the market......
This is what Land Rover should have been working on.
Apparently 8 speed auto only. No manual. A clear indication that they are heading down the complicated and expensive path. Oh well, there had been hope.
https://ineosgrenadier.com/reveal/frame-axles
Box section ladder frame and live axles. Axles from Carraro.
If the 3D models are real.... 4 link front and rear. Front high mount steer.
I'm on the fence with with what I prefer with auto vrs manual transmission, and auto only is not really a deal breaker for me. But it would have been nice to have the choice.
This is very interesting!!!! 8)
https://ineosgrenadier.com/reveal/suspension
Nothing new revealed. 4 link with panhard front and rear. Hopefully they beef up the bottom links. No numbers on travel, but should be easy to modify. Sway bars look easy to disconnect.
I'm no suspension/steering geometry expert, therefore my question: Any thoughts why they have the track rod mounted so low?
Clearance to things. It is a lot higher than on a Land Rover.
If BS baffles brains then my eyes are brown ;D It's nice to see things progress along. Am I wrong...or does this suspension not look robust. Am I going to miss all the electrickery from a vehicle like this....? Naaaaaaaaaa...... ::)
Quote from: Red90 on April 30, 2020, 02:10 PM
Clearance to things. It is a lot higher than on a Land Rover.
Well, we all know they didn't set the bar very high! ;D
;D ;D
This is what we should be seeing (Kirk's truck).
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Quote from: Red90 on May 01, 2020, 09:12 AM
;D ;D
This is what we should be seeing (Kirk's truck).
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hah! Did anyone tell Kirk he put the swivels on upside-down? ..... ;) :-X
Looks like they are using a Dana 44 front and rear. Open C's and unit bearings. Four link with short arms a-la Jeep.
Depending on how similar it actually is to the Jeep set up there could be the worlds largest aftermarket suspension and axle upgrade options ready to go right off the bat! Including exotica like coil overs, Dana 60 one ton and portal axles!!!!!! All bolt in ready to go.
Smart.
Serious too eh!!!! The only thing that slowed him down was the gas station LOL
NICE build though.
Quote from: Matt H on May 01, 2020, 03:59 PM
Looks like they are using a Dana 44 front and rear. Open C's and unit bearings. Four link with short arms a-la Jeep.
Depending on how similar it actually is to the Jeep set up there could be the worlds largest aftermarket suspension and axle upgrade options ready to go right off the bat! Including exotica like coil overs, Dana 60 one ton and portal axles!!!!!! All bolt in ready to go.
Smart.
I really hope that's the way they go. That would make a ton of sense and really smart on their part. There's no bigger aftermarket than Jeep, and for us, extremely easy to get at.
Quote from: Matt H on May 01, 2020, 03:59 PM
Looks like they are using a Dana 44 front and rear. Open C's and unit bearings. Four link with short arms a-la Jeep.
Depending on how similar it actually is to the Jeep set up there could be the worlds largest aftermarket suspension and axle upgrade options ready to go right off the bat! Including exotica like coil overs, Dana 60 one ton and portal axles!!!!!! All bolt in ready to go.
Smart.
The axles are made by Carraro.
It appears LR is feeling the pressure from the loss of the real defender now and is starting to strike out more.
In the land of James Harriet's village of Thirsk in north Yorkshire is the home for Twisted Automotive. A defender modification speciality company that was taken to court in the UK: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/jaguar-land-rover-loses-court-battle-twisted-automotive (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/jaguar-land-rover-loses-court-battle-twisted-automotive)
And Ineos...developers of the Grenadier 4x4 (still in the making) went to court with LR over the basic shape of their new vehicle.
https://www.cityam.com/jim-ratcliffe-wins-jaguar-land-rover-challenge-over-defender-shape/ (https://www.cityam.com/jim-ratcliffe-wins-jaguar-land-rover-challenge-over-defender-shape/)
Okay....Maybe this manufacturer went a wee bit far in copying the Evoque....
https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/jaguar-land-rover-wins-case-china-against-evoque-copycat (https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/jaguar-land-rover-wins-case-china-against-evoque-copycat)
Whatever your feelings about it.....The battle for the small hold LR has on the market is going to get a lot tougher to hold on to.
Some Q&A on FB with lead chassis engineer.
Diff locks front and rear as factory options.
Best in class articulation.
BMW 6 cylinder inlines gas and diesel.
Goal is to make simple as possible and the ability to repair in the field with limited tools.
Normal serviceable hubs.
3500 kg GVW.
3500 kg towing capacity
925 kg rear / 300 kg front capacity over curb weight.
They seem to have a serious goal to make things with long term durability and unbreakable and are testing and designing for that goal. They are also pushing to keep pricing as low as possible.
This is like waiting for Christmas to a 5 year old!!!!! ???
BMW? Otherwise known as Bring More Wrenches?
If simple and robust is the goal then I have questions about the choice of BMW to supply the engine?
Quote from: Matt H on June 02, 2020, 12:34 PM
BMW? Otherwise known as Bring More Wrenches?
If simple and robust is the goal then I have questions about the choice of BMW to supply the engine?
They don't exactly have an infinite choice of suppliers. Where do you suggest the engine comes from?
Pictures in "a matter of weeks".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACg_lDLqNs8.
It's not that BMW doesn't build a nice product but they do have a tendency to be needlessly complex.
It's hard to argue with Japan's track record when it comes to long term Powertrain durability in a 4wd.
Quote from: Matt H on June 02, 2020, 02:33 PM
It's hard to argue with Japan's track record when it comes to long term Powertrain durability in a 4wd.
You are not really comparing modern to modern as needed to pass emissions regulations. Every engine today is as complex as the next. Have you seen the insanity of the new Defenders?
The engines in the current Land Cruisers have quite bad reputations. As far as durability, I have not seen it. The amount of breakdowns and failures I've seen wheeling with them is no less than anything else. When I lived in Australia, every trip involved towing and fixing broken Toyotas. I have a few friends here that gave up wheeling in them with the constant failures. They are no worse than a Land Rover, but LR owners expect it. Toy owners have been brainwashed.
Quote from: Red90 on June 02, 2020, 02:00 PM
Pictures in "a matter of weeks".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACg_lDLqNs8.
Looking forward to it!!!!!
Quote from: Red90 on June 02, 2020, 03:06 PM
Quote from: Matt H on June 02, 2020, 02:33 PM
It's hard to argue with Japan's track record when it comes to long term Powertrain durability in a 4wd.
You are not really comparing modern to modern as needed to pass emissions regulations. Every engine today is as complex as the next. Have you seen the insanity of the new Defenders?
The engines in the current Land Cruisers have quite bad reputations. As far as durability, I have not seen it. The amount of breakdowns and failures I've seen wheeling with them is no less than anything else. When I lived in Australia, every trip involved towing and fixing broken Toyotas. I have a few friends here that gave up wheeling in them with the constant failures. They are no worse than a Land Rover, but LR owners expect it. Toy owners have been brainwashed.
Good point John. Looks like the best new 4wd is an old 4wd lol.
Definitely. But, if the only complex thing that is in this is the engine, then it won't be so bad. If the suspension is mechanical and the axles are repairable and the lockers are manual then this will be better than most.
Hopefully they include proper built in diagnostics with the vehicle.
If a brake light bulb fails the worst that should happen is that I don't have a brake light.
https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-britishcars/ineos-grenadier-spied-for-the-first-time/42550
Anybody know what markets other than the UK this is be sold in? In other words, will we be able to buy one in Canada?
Quote from: Matt H on June 08, 2020, 10:19 AM
Anybody know what markets other than the UK this is be sold in? In other words, will we be able to buy one in Canada?
They said it will be sold everywhere including North America.
interesting 8)
Reveal on Wednesday.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200629/7518331d19d1b21938a62f2f11cd81d4.jpg)
I like what I see.
That one teaser looks better than the whole of the new Ofender.
Quote from: headdamage on June 29, 2020, 05:55 PM
That one teaser loops better than the whole of the new Ofender.
You got that right Andrew!!!!!!
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/motoring/motoring-news/ineos-grenadier-revealed-wraps-come-18518765
It looks like a blend between an older G-wagon and a Defender. That's good pedigree, both very capable rigs.
Better renderings on the official site.
https://ineosgrenadier.com/reveal/exterior-design
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That is what Land Rover should have made.
Put me down for a double cab pick up please ;D
I want one.
Looks smart. I wonder if they will do a short wheel base
Quote from: headdamage on July 01, 2020, 09:06 AM
That is what Land Rover should have made.
YOU'VE GOT THAT RIGHT!!!!! LR dropped the ball massively on this and now this vehicle really has my attention. So far I really like what I see.
check out the question they present to the readers near the end of the article......grendadier vs new defender. You tell me someone didn't miss the plot here ahhahahhahah
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33013259/ineos-grenadier-suv-revealed/ (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33013259/ineos-grenadier-suv-revealed/)
Any word on pricing yet?
Quote from: Matt H on July 02, 2020, 07:20 AM
Any word on pricing yet?
They say that they will be competitive. I suspect a bit lower than the new Defender but not much. Probably inline with a 4 door Rubicon. But we will need to wait to see.
One thing I'm not sure if mentioned. Magna Steyr is doing the bulk of the engineering. They build the G-wagen along with many other vehicles and designed the Pinzgauer and Haflinger.
Quote from: Red90 on July 02, 2020, 09:11 AM
One thing I'm not sure if mentioned. Magna Steyr is doing the bulk of the engineering. They build the G-wagen along with many other vehicles and designed the Pinzgauer and Haflinger.
It was a very promising announcement in my opinion!
So, do we now consider the Grenadier partially Canadian?? ::) lol
I saw a couple of Halflingers while stationed in Germany out on exercise. They were interesting units for sure.
He makes a few good points there doesn't he.... The one concern I've had for a while has been parts supply. Where are we going to get our spares from. I'm sure they will be available but maybe it's time to poke BP and BM to investigate this. I have it on good authority that the response to the new offender isn't quite what they had expected. Now granted...the economy is in the toilets but there are dealers in the UK offering 5000 quid discounts to sell them off their property but no one is interested in a 'reskinned Discovery'. I would really like to have heard the LR boardroom when the grenadier was announced ::)
Rumours are it will be sold and serviced through BMW dealers.
I think the mechanics assessment of the Grenadier and current LR's is pretty UK-centric. Which is fair, that's obviously his scope of reference. But UK don't mean shit in the global auto market.
LR hasn't been about "Defender" for a long time. It's been the lowest seller with the smallest margins for a good many years. They moved on to the upscale SUV/Crossover market long before the last Defender came off the line. And they set new sales records with some of these new vehicles as well (Evoke as an example). Now, I'm not saying I agree with that move. Jeep showed what utility 4x4 market could be, LR passed on the opportunity and this is the market LR has chosen to focus on. The Defender was a UK-centric brand (sales outside the UK were small, and sales in the UK were anemic for years) and they moved away from it to a more global market focus. *shrug* Old news, that ship sailed, etc etc.
Insofar as the Grenadier goes, too early to tell what that will amount to imo. If they follow Jeep's model and offer something that is both affordable and practical, and can gain traction in a few meaningful global markets (US as an example), they might have a chance. If they don't, they're likely to fade pretty fast. Time will tell. Good to see that they plan to align with BMW for distribution. Having a major manufacturer behind them will help getting out of the gate.
I hope it has more generous seating room than the Jeep or real Defender, the Jeep is worse than my 90 which really surprised me.
Land Rover (the real Land Rovers) sales peaked in 1975 at 55000 units. They lost the market after that point as the competition started to supply the features that utility vehicle users were asking for. Finally in the 80s they revamped the model, but they still made "what they wanted" and not what "the buyer's wanted" just like Mike says above. The 90/110/127 never regained any sales and they continued to ignore the desires of the market. Finally twenty years too late, they make a new vehicle and it contains nothing that the original Land Rover buyer wants in a utility vehicle. It has zero connection to the past. It is the vehicle that the Discovery buyers wanted but did not get in the Disco 5.
Now if they would just tell the nice German engineers to piss off and do what they are told and build a bare bones, manual transmission, minimal electronics model, then they would have met the goal. You can't leave German engineers to their own devices. They love to make things complicated just for the fun of it and since they think the rest of the world is full of idiots, you need to be forceful in showing them that they are no smarter than anyone else.
Quote from: Red90 on July 06, 2020, 04:35 PM
Now if they would just tell the nice German engineers to piss off and do what they are told and build a bare bones, manual transmission, minimal electronics model, then they would have met the goal. You can't leave German engineers to their own devices. They love to make things complicated just for the fun of it and since they think the rest of the world is full of idiots, you need to be forceful in showing them that they are no smarter than anyone else.
Hehe, that summarizes it very well.
I liked the fleet operators idea about using as many common sized fasteners as possible and easy to access service locations. That would be a real boon in the field.
Nobody does in 'unnecessarily complicated' like the Germans. Lol.
A review from Matt's best buddy.
That was pretty good imo. There's nothing there that I disagree with regarding his pro/con review of Defender's, and the eyeball review of the Grenadier.
I think he's on the right track with the price as well. This thing will be expensive. Assuming it even makes it to Canada, anything below CAD$80k would really surprise me. If its capable and reliable and actually worth a shit, and small production run, it may well head into that $100k+ range if there's a demand.
Quote from: Red90 on July 08, 2020, 12:59 PM
A review from Matt's best buddy.
Ah yes, Captain Obvious!
The only thing that is certain is that if Ineos was to send him a demonstration unit to test and give feedback on it would be 2025 before they even get through the introduction.
He is right to be excited though. I am too. If it is to be a real global market vehicle including North America it will be a game changer.
Price is relative. I hope they could offer it for reasonable money. And by reasonable I mean around the $50 - $60K mark? With maybe a poverty spec unit for around $40K? However, we currently have domestic half ton trucks demanding in excess of $80,000. One ton pickup, be prepared to pay the best part of $100K! Discovery sport (so a rebadged Freelander) over $70K.
Even a Chevy Impala will run you over $40 large these days. Or to add more perspective, a damn side by side can set you back almost $30K.
If it comes in at over $100K it will be a novelty only. Pricing would need to rival the Jeep Wrangler to be a contender IMHO.
OMG.....does he ever shut up!?!?!?!? I like the review but his hands fly around as fast as his lips move!!! You'd think you were at an italian supper or something! But he does have something to say that's worth listening too......even thought he takes forever to say it ahahhahahahhah
But wait.....could they be moving the Grenadier Plant to France (from Wales)?????
https://www.autoblog.com/2020/07/07/ineos-grenadier-production-france-not-wales/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS91cmw_c2E9dCZyY3Q9aiZxPSZlc3JjPXMmc291cmNlPW5ld3NzZWFyY2gmY2Q9JnZlZD0wYWhVS0V3alNrT3Y5cjdfcUFoVmVKRFFJSFJSVkFYMFFxUUlJTENnQU1BQSZ1cmw9aHR0cHMlM0ElMkYlMkZ3d3cuYXV0b2Jsb2cuY29tJTJGMjAyMCUyRjA3JTJGMDclMkZpbmVvcy1ncmVuYWRpZXItcHJvZHVjdGlvbi1mcmFuY2Utbm90LXdhbGVzJTJGJnVzZz1BT3ZWYXcyaTJLYUNIUzMtdzFqTFBYSFF6UFVL&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADVyVtbTNyuPUcWEdhvgthtHxwxtkW8bUMS6PklWpevZDQa4CpNiW5ocu0gRh-HCCjCJbuUvZZqvSeDfKrJscYsSBOEec4vQByPhPPD6hzCLqQiJMda3ADvmLq-dHK8HUjZLGGDvu8cpv9cruTp-rzZkZd1b1czadpqSYXKum9Ze (https://www.autoblog.com/2020/07/07/ineos-grenadier-production-france-not-wales/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS91cmw_c2E9dCZyY3Q9aiZxPSZlc3JjPXMmc291cmNlPW5ld3NzZWFyY2gmY2Q9JnZlZD0wYWhVS0V3alNrT3Y5cjdfcUFoVmVKRFFJSFJSVkFYMFFxUUlJTENnQU1BQSZ1cmw9aHR0cHMlM0ElMkYlMkZ3d3cuYXV0b2Jsb2cuY29tJTJGMjAyMCUyRjA3JTJGMDclMkZpbmVvcy1ncmVuYWRpZXItcHJvZHVjdGlvbi1mcmFuY2Utbm90LXdhbGVzJTJGJnVzZz1BT3ZWYXcyaTJLYUNIUzMtdzFqTFBYSFF6UFVL&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADVyVtbTNyuPUcWEdhvgthtHxwxtkW8bUMS6PklWpevZDQa4CpNiW5ocu0gRh-HCCjCJbuUvZZqvSeDfKrJscYsSBOEec4vQByPhPPD6hzCLqQiJMda3ADvmLq-dHK8HUjZLGGDvu8cpv9cruTp-rzZkZd1b1czadpqSYXKum9Ze)
You're exactly right with your comments on price Matt. It is indeed a relative thing.
On the one hand I'm thinking how/where it will be made. If it's a UK product with parts sourced from the UK or Euro area and not China, that's going to up the price a bit along with the quality.
Where I get to the 100k range is if it is a small production run but high demand vehicle. It could draw more buyers than there are vehicles available, and that starts running the price up at dealerships.
If it's made the way I hope it is going to be made, and keeps all things China f&*ked right off from their production line, then coming in below CAD80k (import costs, duties all pile in here too) would be a real shocker.
Quote from: binch on July 08, 2020, 11:05 PM
But wait.....could they be moving the Grenadier Plant to France (from Wales)?????
https://www.autoblog.com/2020/07/07/ineos-grenadier-production-france-not-wales/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS91cmw_c2E9dCZyY3Q9aiZxPSZlc3JjPXMmc291cmNlPW5ld3NzZWFyY2gmY2Q9JnZlZD0wYWhVS0V3alNrT3Y5cjdfcUFoVmVKRFFJSFJSVkFYMFFxUUlJTENnQU1BQSZ1cmw9aHR0cHMlM0ElMkYlMkZ3d3cuYXV0b2Jsb2cuY29tJTJGMjAyMCUyRjA3JTJGMDclMkZpbmVvcy1ncmVuYWRpZXItcHJvZHVjdGlvbi1mcmFuY2Utbm90LXdhbGVzJTJGJnVzZz1BT3ZWYXcyaTJLYUNIUzMtdzFqTFBYSFF6UFVL&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADVyVtbTNyuPUcWEdhvgthtHxwxtkW8bUMS6PklWpevZDQa4CpNiW5ocu0gRh-HCCjCJbuUvZZqvSeDfKrJscYsSBOEec4vQByPhPPD6hzCLqQiJMda3ADvmLq-dHK8HUjZLGGDvu8cpv9cruTp-rzZkZd1b1czadpqSYXKum9Ze (https://www.autoblog.com/2020/07/07/ineos-grenadier-production-france-not-wales/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS91cmw_c2E9dCZyY3Q9aiZxPSZlc3JjPXMmc291cmNlPW5ld3NzZWFyY2gmY2Q9JnZlZD0wYWhVS0V3alNrT3Y5cjdfcUFoVmVKRFFJSFJSVkFYMFFxUUlJTENnQU1BQSZ1cmw9aHR0cHMlM0ElMkYlMkZ3d3cuYXV0b2Jsb2cuY29tJTJGMjAyMCUyRjA3JTJGMDclMkZpbmVvcy1ncmVuYWRpZXItcHJvZHVjdGlvbi1mcmFuY2Utbm90LXdhbGVzJTJGJnVzZz1BT3ZWYXcyaTJLYUNIUzMtdzFqTFBYSFF6UFVL&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADVyVtbTNyuPUcWEdhvgthtHxwxtkW8bUMS6PklWpevZDQa4CpNiW5ocu0gRh-HCCjCJbuUvZZqvSeDfKrJscYsSBOEec4vQByPhPPD6hzCLqQiJMda3ADvmLq-dHK8HUjZLGGDvu8cpv9cruTp-rzZkZd1b1czadpqSYXKum9Ze)
It certainly sounds like it. Sigh 😔
Quote from: binch on July 08, 2020, 11:05 PM
But wait.....could they be moving the Grenadier Plant to France (from Wales)?????
If there is a functional plant built, that saves years in the timeline,
But it is more likely a way to get better terms from the Wales government. You do not become the richest man in the land by playing nicely with the other children.
I would think Brexit might play into the final location as well.
Hahaha, very funny. He's not wrong though. Price is what will make or break its future as a real commercial alternative or just a novelty.
They did the drivetrain reveal today. Nothing surprising.
3 liter in-line 6 BMW engines in diesel and petrol.
ZF 8 speed auto. No manual option.
Custom transfer case. All gear. Full time with manually selected high and low and manually selected differential lock. Basically same design as LT230 from the little I could see. No mention of ratios.
They are 18 months into testing with 12 more to go. Plan is 1.8 million km testing in vehicle.
They are building 100 prototypes for testing around the world.
Are we signed up to to test one?
Quote from: headdamage on August 13, 2020, 05:22 PM
Are we signed up to to test one?
Oh yes please!!!!! ;D
I wrote this somewhere else on the subject:
Yes modern autos are good but they are not manuals. I like driving a manual, it is fun, it makes me part of the machine and not just a passenger, and it just feels better. A manual does not need any wires or electronics/computers. If it goes wrong I can have a good idea what is wrong and if I can work around it to get home or not. If I drown my manual and it takes on water I can drain and refill it. Things I want in a Defender replacement; British, cheap, easy to work on, diesel, manual trans, little to no electronics, body on ladder frame, two speed gear driven t-case, solid axles, coil springs, etc... I can accept not having some of these features but miss on too many of them and it is no longer a candidate.
Realistically even the Defender, in it's later years, was leaving the Defender bubble so to say though at least you could still strip it down and rebuild it the way you wanted. Perhaps the true test of the Grenadier will be to see how practical or not it will be to strip it down and rebuild it the way a person wants it after the fancy bits start to fail. Can I buy a thrashed one in a few years and fit a Cummins 2.8r with TR4050 and LT230 into one for example.
I can't ever see myself getting rid of my exmil 90 that has a galvanized chassis, Defender 200tdi, LT77G 51A, Disco LT230, station wagon hard top, volvo 240 series seats, ARB rear diff, etc... However, there is room for a 110 substitute if one comes along that fits the bill, make the Grenadier ergonomically good enough and priced well enough combined with being easy to work on/maintain and I'll over look it not being made in the UK and maybe even not having a manual transmission, but it better be really good in all other ways to pull this off.
"..what it would have been like if land rover got it right.."
;)
Mid 40's for the price tag. (that's pounds steriling)
Nothing interesting. 17" and 18" rims. No mention of size. Looks like 32" to me. 6 bolt, probably Toy pattern. Boring Bridgestone tires but at least will have severe snow service rating.
And there's talk of an interior coming out in a couple of weeks (hopefully not Trump's version of a couple of weeks ahahhahahhahahah) Very much looking forward to this coming out!
If it is the Toy six bolt pattern that's good news as it's the same as many others including Chevy and Nissan.
And a 17" rim size makes tyre shopping easy.
Quote from: binch on July 08, 2020, 11:05 PM
But wait.....could they be moving the Grenadier Plant to France (from Wales)?????
It is confirmed today that they will build in France.
That's too bad. But it was always going to be a globally sourced vehicle.
I think I'll just hang onto my old Defender if it's all the same.
Looks like Ineos has bought an existing manufacturing facility from Mercedes, in Hambach, Germany to build their vehicle.
https://ineosgrenadier.com/news/ineos-automotive-confirms-acquisition-of-hambach-production-site-from-mercedes-benz (https://ineosgrenadier.com/news/ineos-automotive-confirms-acquisition-of-hambach-production-site-from-mercedes-benz)
It is in France, not Germany.
My mistake...sounded like a german name to me LOL ;D
Galvanized steel and aluminum body.
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I wonder when we'll get to see the interior ::)
Quote from: binch on February 18, 2021, 11:15 PM
I wonder when we'll get to see the interior ::)
It won't be until near the end. A lot of interior parts are injection molded and you need to setup for large volumes in order to make it cost effective. They would not do that until the designs are final and they are close to production.
Just be happy that they are focusing on the important items and are actually sharing a lot of information in advance.
Looking at the underside, they seem to have done a pretty good job of keeping things tucked up and out of the way.
I was hoping that they'd be able to tuck the rear lower trailing arm mount up a little tighter.
The photo John attached above makes them appear higher than some of these digital photos, like what I've attached.
For those of you who've driven D2's and similar with a rear panhard rod/3-link setup, does it behave much different to a Defender A-arm setup?
They need to be low for good geometry. A trailing link that angles down to the axle forces a high anti squat and roll steer. Having them level is best but not practical. Longer would be better, but packaging for the upper links constrains what is practical. They should integrate a ramp from the chassis though as it will catch.
I see they have recovery points welded to the chassis front and rear.
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Quote from: Red90 on February 19, 2021, 09:44 AM
They need to be low for good geometry. A trailing link that angles down to the axle forces a high anti squat and roll steer. Having them level is best but not practical. Longer would be better, but packaging for the upper links constrains what is practical. They should integrate a ramp from the chassis though as it will catch.
I see they have recovery points welded to the chassis front and rear.
Yeah, I figured a mix of geometry and space constraints. I was hoping for better ramping... though I'm sure the aftermarket will be there quickly with a bolt-on if it becomes a problem with breakover on logs/rocks/etc.
Here are some shots from earlier videos showing link geometry. The uppers links and their intrusion into the passenger compartment is where the problems arise. On a positive side, what they are showing is a better than what is on a traditional Land Rover and what is on a Wrangler as far as geometry goes. It should be really stable and allow for quite long travel.
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Why have I only just noticed that the front and rear diffs are offset to the left?
Interesting.
Probably due to the BMW engine exhausting on the right.
It's great to see progress isn't it!?!
I'm still waiting to see what the interior is going to be like....very curious. 8)
Any details on what diffs/axles they are going with? I haven't been able to find info on that.
The axles are from Carraro.
is that good or bad...? ???
Carraro should be fine. They normally make axles and drivetrain components for heavy machinery.
It is all on the details though on how they spec out the parts.
sounds like it's on the right track so far. :)
I'm curious if they are following and existing template (Dana or Toy as examples), or designing something new. Finding aftermarket support will be much better if they don't try to reinvent the wheel.
Carraro will be using one of their existing centers most likely. Wheel pattern appears to be what is used on Land Cruisers. There will be no existing aftermarket support.
I'll add that it does not matter if they build it properly. If they do not include axles that don't break, the whole thing is a failure.
Quote from: Red90 on May 16, 2021, 10:36 AM
I'll add that it does not matter if they build it properly. If they do not include axles that don't break, the whole thing is a failure.
Agreed.
LC bolt pattern would be welcome as the more shared rims, the better.
Quote from: Red90 on May 16, 2021, 10:36 AM
I'll add that it does not matter if they build it properly. If they do not include axles that don't break, the whole thing is a failure.
I don't agree.
Certainly if they manage to make axles that don't break it would be most welcome but also at the same time it would be totally unique in the off-road segment.
Look up any off road forum for any make/model and (after the ubiquitous "what size tyre can I fit...?" questions) likely the #1 topic for discussion for serious modifications are axle swaps and axle upgrades.
So I don't think it would be a failure if the axles aren't bulletproof. After all, it never hurt Land Rover.
My2c
With stock sized tires and drivetrain they should be unbreakable. It is a very easy objective to meet.
The fact that other makers do not do this is a poor excuse.
Carraro makes axles for industrial machinery. When you buy a tractor you expect the axles to last forever. It is no different here.
Quote from: Matt H on May 16, 2021, 02:37 PM
So I don't think it would be a failure if the axles aren't bulletproof. After all, it never hurt Land Rover.
My2c
Hmm, I'm not sure what you mean by that Matt. Their axles are one of the biggest failings of Land Rover. Interestingly, you see a good comparison within the LR line. Their Dana 60 copy is very strong relative to their own rover diffs and axles. Although the spline count went up over time, which helped, so too did the weight. When you start into things like the D2 which run only the rover setup, it's not a terribly robust design if you are going to load it up and work it.
That doesn't mean you can't be gentle and stretch them out, but between the weak axles or weak carrier design, it's not a very reliable setup.
Didn't hurt Land Rover? They lost the entire segment to Toyota and Nissan because they broke down all of the time. If they had made utility vehicles that where durable, they would have owned the segment and not gone under more times than you can count.
So here is why I don't think the entire project is a failure if the axles are not indestructible.
Toyota and Nissan axles also break. One ton truck 14 bolt axles break. Everything can break.
Land Rover axles are adequate stock if you don't drive like a moron. All loaded up to near max GVW with modern overlander type crap and hard wheeling with big tyres and it is what it is. A light duty 1/4 ton axle. It's gonna break eventually.
Overloaded and abused is something you can't design for without massively overbuilding, which is not cost effective. I've repaired countless broken heavy duty and light duty truck axles that have been subjected to age and/or abuse.
Ag equipment axles aren't a fair comparison. They are totally different and do still break. I've also had to replace them.
Lack of value is what hurt (and still does hurt) Land Rover sales. That and poor build quality.
Land Rovers have always been expensive and always had poor build quality and patchy reliability. When it came to old utility Land Rovers you don't get much in the way of creature comforts and gizmos. The Japanese products moved on, Land Rovers didn't and that's partly why I like them. Their main selling points were adaptability and they could be endlessly rebuilt.
If the durability of the axles was a make or break factor for the entire vehicle none of us would ever own a Land Rover?
Having said all that, I hope they are stronger.
Fair points Matt, and I don't disagree with your premise that everything will break.
I look at it this way though. The rover axles are the worst of most comparable offerings. And that's more so when you look at what the D110's and D1's were advertised to do...load them up with a ton of stuff and haul over any terrain. I think we'd agree they were under-built for that.
However if we use the armored car variants of the Defenders as an example we see a pretty good option build out that addresses the weakness in meaningful and reasonable way. Dana 60's front and rear. That would have been a great option to offer as standard on all 110's and 130's. I think with that config there isn't much I would find as a big weakness in the overall vehicle package. Sure, there's always something one can point at as a dislike, but overall its a pretty strong vehicle. Compare that to a D1 used on the CT's with LR axles, or a Defender with LR axles, and you've got an entirely different, and more vulnerable, vehicle.
I don't see the Grenadier being something I'd ever buy, but I think they'd serve themselves well to at least offer something similar to that Dana60 front and rear setup. At least as an option for buyers who want to use the vehicles and put them through their paces.
Funny you should mention front and rear Dana 60s as an option Land Rover should have widely offered.
I have a set waiting to be built into my new replacement 110 project.
So while I profess Land Rover axles to be "adequate" it would seem I'm not really taking my own advice lol.
In my defence I am planning for something a little more than standard for that unit and I've wheeled my heavy old Rangie for years (often driving like moron) and haven't broken an axle.....yet.
I was just watching the latest video on the grenedier and they are saying now that the vehicle will have the bulk of it's assembly done in south wales, and be a "british built car". So....what's happened to the old Mercedes plant they were going to use in Austria (or was it Germany)? I also saw a suggested price tag of 50K GPD. So we'll see where this leads, especially since it due to be released next year. ???
Do you have a link? Are you sure it was not an old video?
I think you maybe right on that John....the video that was bedded in with the article is from Aug 2020. But the article was new....just car magazine hype.
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ineos/grenadier/355270/ineos-grenadier-prototype-2022-review?utm_source=Salesforce&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=MediaTest (https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ineos/grenadier/355270/ineos-grenadier-prototype-2022-review?utm_source=Salesforce&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=MediaTest)
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It's kind of awesome... I'm very tempted... I know there were sketches of a pickup version, but have they said anything about going forward with it too? If it has a good payload (better than a Gladiator or Tacoma), that would be a game changer for me.
ooooooooooo....I LIKE candy!!!!! But only 3 sheep....?!?
just open the doors and take the hose to it!!! I like that!!!!
It's looking like it's going to be VERY interesting ;D
I know near the beginning they were talking about a ute (pick-up) version. I saw the renderings of it (still online if you look), but I haven't seen or heard anything since. Has anyone heard anything? Maybe I missed something. If they do produce one, and the payload is greater than the Gladiator or Taco, that'll be a game-changer!
Quote from: GR8PMKN on July 07, 2021, 09:10 PM
I know near the beginning they were talking about a ute (pick-up) version. I saw the renderings of it (still online if you look), but I haven't seen or heard anything since. Has anyone heard anything? Maybe I missed something. If they do produce one, and the payload is greater than the Gladiator or Taco, that'll be a game-changer!
check out the IBEX
https://www.ibexvehicles.com/techspecs/ (https://www.ibexvehicles.com/techspecs/)
Independent review and look.
Quote from: GR8PMKN on July 07, 2021, 09:10 PM
I know near the beginning they were talking about a ute (pick-up) version. I saw the renderings of it (still online if you look), but I haven't seen or heard anything since. Has anyone heard anything? Maybe I missed something. If they do produce one, and the payload is greater than the Gladiator or Taco, that'll be a game-changer!
Yes, there is a dual cab pickup on a longer wheelbase planned, but it would be later. It won't be in the Tacoma price range though....
Interesting. I'll have to keep an eye out for that. Also, I keep hearing of the predicted pricing, but it'll be interesting to see what the real pricing will be. Also what their distribution plan is. Will these be sold and serviced through BMW? Hmm...
I'd be gobsmacked if these are NOT distributed through BMW dealers considering the power plant. Can't see BMW letting any other party work on their engines or loose that entire Service revenue stream.
https://ineosgrenadier.com/en/gb/vehicle-configurator
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ineos/grenadier/96387/new-2022-ineos-grenadier-go-sale-next-year-priced-ps48000
Starting at £48,000 = $82000. Eeek.
Yup, gotta hefty price tag on it doesn't it. I guess I'll have to sell off my first born.....hahahhahha
Pretty much where I figured it would be (see my post on pg 6).
Keep in mind that price isn't quite all in yet. It still needs to be shipped, taxed, etc. So probably CAD$90+ range by the time it is all said and done here.
I did notice that if you choose the USA (no Canada available?) in the vehicle configuration section of the grenadier website you can only get six cylinder turbocharged petrol engine.
No diesel options for those oil burner addicts among us.
One of the things I find frustrating with modern vehicles is the amount of gadgets and switches they place at Drivers finger tips. What I love about Tigger is the simple interface. Minimalist.
On the Bronco they use a screen that you can turn off. It makes it quite and simple when driving long trips.
This new car looks very nice. However, the driver command centre is too busy and confusing. Almost need to read the manual before you start lol
A review from someone with lots of real off road experience that owns a very heavily built Defender and Land Cruiser.
Is there any true utility biased 4x4 in the Canadian market?
Quote from: headdamage on February 23, 2022, 12:44 PM
Is there any true utility biased 4x4 in the Canadian market?
Hmm, not a new one that I can think of. Or, that's assuming we are talking about something like an older LR, Toyota, Ford/Chev/Dodge pickup. All the emissions and safety requirements make those types of vehicles pretty much impossible these days unfortunately.
How about something with rubber floors, no infotainment center, no display screens, etc... There is nothing. I might need to buy a newer truck for work this year and the options mostly make me feel ill looking at them. I is almost worth building up a rover but I hate using my fun trucks for work for various reasons. Current work truck is a 2006 Chev 2500HD diesel 4x4, still in good shape but has just over 400,000km on it now. No rush anyway but I would like to figure it out before it becomes pressing.
I signed up for notifications on the Grenadier and just got an invite to see the prototype (I expect others have gotten the same invite). Looks like June 8 in Calgary and you have to book your appointment ahead of time. That's a Wednesday, so I'm not sure if I can manage to get down there, but will try to swing it. Anyone else get the invite and planning to go?
I saw that myself.....3 stops in Canada (hah!). And there will not be a diesel option available in north america. >:(
I thought I was signed up for notifications, and I've been getting some, but not the one to go see it. How does one get signed up for that??
Quote from: binch on May 23, 2022, 10:25 PM
I saw that myself.....3 stops in Canada (hah!). And there will not be a diesel option available in north america. >:(
I suppose we should consider ourselves lucky that it's not just going to Toronto. And yeah, would like to see a diesel option. In any case, I don't think I'm seriously considering one, but wouldn't mind seeing it in person. Will probably drive the 110 down there, assuming we can get the master cylinder sorted in time!
Quote from: GR8PMKN on May 26, 2022, 01:33 PM
I thought I was signed up for notifications, and I've been getting some, but not the one to go see it. How does one get signed up for that??
I'm not sure what options I selected that got me the invite. T'was quite a while ago now.
Expedition Portal North American review.
https://expeditionportal.com/ineos-grenadier-exclusive-first-overland-test-prototype/ (https://expeditionportal.com/ineos-grenadier-exclusive-first-overland-test-prototype/)
The video review from the article.
Look at the Australian spec with accessories.
Lucky Dawgs!!!! They can get the diesel version >:(
I'm not sure I'd want a modern diesel even if it were available. All the dpf bull crap and extra electronic controls make them a bit of a liability long term.
Not that a modern petrol is much simpler with the variable valve timing etc but at least you don't have all that exhaust crap waiting to ruin your day as well.
I believe both are bmw units too so...yeah, there's that too.
JFC!!!!! Who the heck is going to buy these things?
FROM $91,929.00
https://ineosgrenadier.com/en/ca/the-vehicle/vehicle-configurator
I'm out!
At this point I'd say I'm firmly passing on this vehicle and sticking with the 110 haha. After a few years of ownership my only real complaint with the 110 is how bloody slow it is and the excessive revs at highway speed. If I was itching to spend money, I imagine I could have the engine swapped and a modern auto installed for quite a bit less than the starting price on the Ineos...
Here's an interesting review of the Grenadier....still sounds like a nicer option to the new Ofender LOL
Still not available in Canada yet but "they wanted to wait until Canadian import duties on European-made vehicles were nixed, as of Jan. 1, 2024, under the Canada-EU Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA)".
Still....it's not cheap....but it does come prepared. ::)
A good review.
Thanks for posting that link John. Other then the 'bloody great lump' he seemed very impressed by it. The smaller fuel tank issue would be even more noticeable with the petrol engine (seeing as we can't have the diesel version in Canada). How many jerry cans would you need on the AMT with the petrol version? :o
All that said....His review sounded very positive. Great effort for Grenadier on the first attempt!!!! Maybe one day I too will with the lottery ;D
I'm sure it is very nice. And for the sticker price it bloody well should be.
Just like a new Defender Bronco or Colorado Bison or loaded JL Rubicon etc.
All very nice, very new and very expensive.
I do hope they are able to build up the brand and perhaps one day offer something a little more affordable but by coming out the gate with a unproven vehicle this expensive with a giant parts/service/warranty grey area when compared with its established competitors I don't expect that there will be a lot of people willing to roll those dice.
My 2c
I have just come back from Toronto and went to the motor show at Exhibition place, where I saw a Grenadier or display, it looked pretty fancy, compared to our old Defenders!
Does this remind you have the sales program from LR days gone by??? Pretty cool way to get your keys ;-)
Apparently Ineos have announced an Electric model called the 'Fusilier'.
EV 4x4 review discussing issues they face:
Spotted at the flying J in Medicine Hat.
Very nice.