Alberta Land Rover Enthusiasts Club Forum
General => Technical Discussions => Topic started by: Red90 on November 22, 2015, 08:36 AM
Binch had ask me about local options for fuel lines the other day. I had recently re-done my lines and it was fresh in my brain, so I agreed to type up some information. :-*
This applies to my 1991 Defender, but I think is relevant to most of the trucks of the era. You will have to go and see what you have on your own.
The main lines used from the factory are nylon tubing. Nylon tubing is a good choice, IMO. It is chemically inert to all fuels, it has very high pressure ratings and it is cheap and easy to work with. Air brake lines on most trucks use nylon tubing, so it is very common. I have seen 3/8" and 5/16" tubing used on the Land Rover. The tubing is sized by the outside diameter. You will need to measure yours to see what is there. 3/8" is very, very common. 5/16" is an oddball size and you need to go to a hose specialty store to find it.
In some locations, Land Rover has heat formed the tubing in order to get tighter radius bends. If you want to do this yourself, you need to heat it until it is soft, bend it and let it cool. You need to be careful to not heat it too much as it will lose all strength and collapse... The safest way I have found it to immerse the section being bent into boiling water. Wait for it to soften, then take it out and bend it around a suitable object until it cools.
Where Land Rover gets goofy is the connection to the equipment. Sometimes, they heat form the tubing over top of a metal tube. You do this in a similar way to the bends. I find it best to heat and put oil on the metal tube as well. Sometimes they form it over a hose barb and sometimes they use a flare style fitting. Sometimes the metal tube uses a banjo connections, sometimes a flare fitting.
On my truck, I got tired of the "goofy" custom fittings and decided to change everything to common fittings. I'll go through the basics of that below. Note I have dual tanks, so the layout is different than normal.
The sedimenter and the lift pump use a flare style fitting. The flare uses a 1/2" UNF thread. The flare itself does not appear to match any standard flare. What I have used is -5 ORB fittings with a 1/2" copper washer. An ORB fitting is a hydraulic fitting that uses an O-ring. The female side is meant to have a machined spot for the O-ring. In this case, there is no place for the O-ring, so I remove it and use the copper washer. Now... "-5" is not a common size and you will need to find a specialty place to locate an adapter. I ordered mine from this place: http://clicksupplies.ca/en/product/nt3269-05-04/ You can get them locally, but this was a fair bit cheaper.... The adapter I used, takes it to 1/4" NPT and you can then get whatever fitting you like at the hardware store. I decided to use 3/8" tubing for everything and used a compression fitting. Note that if you do use compression fittings that you must use a tubing insert inside of the nylon tubing. This prevents it from being crushed. The compression fitting was bought at Home Depot.
(http://www.red90.ca/photos/cache/land-rovers/Fuel%20Lines/IMG_1392_w435_h580.jpg)
(http://www.red90.ca/photos/cache/land-rovers/Fuel%20Lines/IMG_1441_w580_h435.jpg)
(http://www.red90.ca/photos/cache/land-rovers/Fuel%20Lines/IMG_1442_w435_h580.jpg)
The other main fittings are the fuel return at the injection pump and the return and supply at the tank. These all use metal tubing. Now for the fun part. Some tubes are 5/16" and some are 8 mm... 5/16" is 7.94 mm. It is VERY close, but not close enough for a compression fitting. Metric tubing fittings are very uncommon in Canada as well. I had not noticed the problem when I did mine and used 5/16" to 3/8" tubing unions. I was able to drill out the 5/16" slightly to fit the 8 mm tubing.... Your mileage may vary. I don't know if you can get a single fitting to change from 8 mm to imperial and you probably would need to use two fittings.
(http://www.red90.ca/photos/cache/land-rovers/Fuel%20Lines/IMG_1632_w580_h435.jpg)
(http://www.red90.ca/photos/cache/land-rovers/Fuel%20Lines/IMG_1630_w580_h435.jpg)
Great write up John!!!!! ;D
Indeed, that's some good info, thanks John
And for the hell of it, this is the fuel switching setup I did for the dual tanks.
(http://www.red90.ca/photos/cache/land-rovers/Fuel%20Lines/IMG_1639_w580_h435.jpg)
(http://www.red90.ca/photos/cache/land-rovers/Fuel%20Lines/IMG_1638_w580_h435.jpg)
This will come in handy for Craig as he's installed a second fuel tank in his 2.5n/a series 11 88" ;)
For local supply.
Nylon air brake tubing.
http://www.greenlinehose.com/index.jsp?ID=,Industrial.Hose,Auto.Truck,Air.Brake.Hose,G1212.Nylon.Air.Brake,dept-1PL&path=find&ds=dept&a=1
-5 ORB to 1/4" FNPT adapters
http://www.greenlinehose.com/index.jsp?path=product&part=1931&ds=dept&process=search&qdx=0&ID=%2CHydraulic.Hose.Fittings%2CAdapters%2CO.Ring.Boss%2C1108.O.Ring.Boss.Female.Pipe.Connector%2Cdept-2PY
This has all been really helpful info John! Thanks very much for writing it up for us. This gives me a LOT of food for thought with my RRC rebuild now!
I see the airbrake hose is about a buck a foot so not too bad at all :-)
Yes, very cheap. Not clear on their pages... The sizing is the last digits of the code in 16th of an inch...
G1212-06 "G1212" is the model of the tubing "-06" = 6/16" = 3/8" Same with all the fittings and such....
Had a look at Gregg Distributors and they carry it too...but they don't posts their prices. I like that idea of colour coding the lines....sure makes it easier to tell which is which when both lines are the same diameter. :D
Nice work, John. The more people who do this the better.
(Don't I owe you some money? Let me know).
Jim
I've been reading your write up as I am replacing the 2.25 gas in my Lightweight with a 2.5NA. This obviously means modifying the fuel system. I have the 2 under seat fuel tanks so have to decide whether to have suction & return to same tank and tanks connected with a cross over line. Or a separate suction & return to each tank. I know there are pro and cons to either system and to be honest, I haven't looked over the vehicle to see if one system is easier to install over the other.
My question is when planning the fuel lines in a 2 separate tank, 2 suction & 2 return line system, is it necessary to have a sedimentor for each tank and before the 3 way valve or can I get away with 1 sedimentor after the 3 way valve, on the common suction line to the lift pump?
Just thinking about my fuel system on the 300tdi .....
John, what did you use to seal your mechanical joints (-5 ORB to 1/4" FNPT adapters)? Teflon tape or what......?
For Bruce's question. The sedimenter goes in the common line after the switchover valve.
Bill. On the ORB side I use a copper washer. On the NPT I use thread sealant. I do not like tape as it can plug things.
FYI, this is where I got the ORD/NPT adapters. Good price for a Canadian supplier. http://clicksupplies.ca/en/product/nt3269-05-04/
Hi John,
I'm just putting together my shopping list to fetch all the parts and I'm reading over your instructions again. In the last bit you wrote:
"The other main fittings are the fuel return at the injection pump and the return and supply at the tank. These all use metal tubing. Now for the fun part. Some tubes are 5/16" and some are 8 mm... 5/16" is 7.94 mm. It is VERY close, but not close enough for a compression fitting. Metric tubing fittings are very uncommon in Canada as well. I had not noticed the problem when I did mine and used 5/16" to 3/8" tubing unions. I was able to drill out the 5/16" slightly to fit the 8 mm tubing.... Your mileage may vary. I don't know if you can get a single fitting to change from 8 mm to imperial and you probably would need to use two fittings."
When you drilled out the 5/16" are you referring to the opening of the compression nut only? Or did you have to do the olive too?
Thank's again for this write up.....Great stuff!!!
Quote from: binch on February 07, 2016, 01:54 PMWhen you drilled out the 5/16" are you referring to the opening of the compression nut only? Or did you have to do the olive too?
I drilled both the nut and olive (ferrule).
Quote from: Red90 on February 07, 2016, 07:46 AM
FYI, this is where I got the ORD/NPT adapters. Good price for a Canadian supplier. http://clicksupplies.ca/en/product/nt3269-05-04/
Do you mean ORB or ORD here? I see further above you use ORD..... :o
What brass couplings are you using to go from the nylon tube to the sedimentor and the fuel pump, and were they from Home depot too?
What copper washers did you use with the adaptors at the sedimentor and fuel pump please?
ORB - O Ring Boss.
Quote from: binch on February 07, 2016, 02:22 PM
What brass couplings are you using to go from the nylon tube to the sedimentor and the fuel pump, and were they from Home depot too?
What copper washers did you use with the adaptors at the sedimentor and fuel pump please?
3/8" tube x 1/4" NPT. Either straight or elbow. You can get them at a hardware store. Make sure you use a tubing insert. Some fittings come with them.
1/2" washer. You can buy a nice assortment box at Princess Auto. The threads on a -5 fitting is 1/2" UNF.
sorry john....one more question and then I'll quite...for now ;)
"-5 ORB to 1/4" FNPT adapters" is it FNPT or NPT?
thanks...
The ones I bought were F. FNPT means Female NPT. MNPT means Male NPT. It is just stating whether the treads are male or female. NPT means National Pipe Thread.
Quote from: Red90 on February 07, 2016, 03:24 PM
The ones I bought were F. FNPT means Female NPT. MNPT means Male NPT. It is just stating whether the treads are male or female. NPT means National Pipe Thread.
Thanks for clarifying that ;)
Don't want to hijack the post but with your 2 tank system, would you consider having 1 tank as reserve and with in-line pump transfer into the working tank?
When I change Lightweight gas engine to diesel, (and my 110 where I've added a 90 side tank), I'm thinking it might be simpler to have one tank to work from and other as reserve to transfer from. Advantage especially with 110, is suction/ return lines already in place to rear tank. Big disadvantage is if working tank is condemned/ damaged and therefore not workable, you can't isolate and draw from reserve tank. Has this been an issue with those of you on long overland trips such as Mackenzie Trail? Or am I over thinking this? By the way a NAPA inline fuel pump start at $70 so cheaper than 2 of 3 port valves that John has used.
For added information to those adding a second tank, Colin used this from Princess Auto and thought it ideal.
http://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/20-gpm-2-position-6-way-selector-valve/A-p8173932e
Pricey, but John says his 3 port valves were $50 each so not a great deal more. But as he noted with 6 way valve you can not transfer fuel by drawing from one tank and returning to the other.
Bruce
All the options will work. All have pros and cons.
I had a quick check at a local truck repair shop and was told nylon air brake line is NOT the best choice for diesel fuel lines. Diesel will eat the lining of the nylon air brake line.
Parts person could not say how long air brake line would last but stressed it was not the best choice for diesel application. :(
If I didn't want to use rubber fuel hose that they recommend, stock and use, then I was advised to go to someone like Gregg's or Acklands and ask for nylon fuel line.
Just a warning to use what application requires. ;)
Nylon is completely and 100% compatible with diesel. The advice you were given was not correct. The stock fuel lines in the Land Rovers is nylon.
There is no lining in a nylon air brake tube. It is 100% nylon.
http://www.greenlinehose.com/content/8.AutomotiveHose.pdf
Quotetube and cover made from light and heat stabilized Nylon 11
Nylon 11 has no reaction or deterioration from any types of vehicle fuels.
I will also suggest not buying hose or fittings at Gregg or Acklands. They are just middlemen mark-up companies. Go to a hose store.
Air Brake tubing, $1 a foot for 3/8".
http://www.greenlinehose.com/index.jsp?ID=,Industrial.Hose,Auto.Truck,Air.Brake.Hose,G1212.Nylon.Air.Brake,dept-1PL&path=find&ds=dept&a=1
Unreinforced nylon... $2.60 a foot!!
http://www.greenlinehose.com/index.jsp?ID=,Industrial.Hose,Unreinforced.Tubing,G800N.Nylon.Tubing,dept-1R3&path=find&ds=dept&a=1
Might as well get polyurethane at that price! $1.28 a foot.
http://www.greenlinehose.com/index.jsp?ID=,Industrial.Hose,Unreinforced.Tubing,G1700.Polyurethane.Tubing,dept-1R0&path=find&ds=dept&a=1
Just going by what they tell me. Probably the air brake line they stock is different than the hose you are able to buy/use.
Here in small town Drayton Valley, I can only ask at the shops we have and consider what stock they carry and this is generally the most bought items.
Don't know if we have a "hose store". Everyone seems to carry a bit of everything. NAPA generally auto supplies, United Truck large truck supplies, etc. etc.
But I'm sure if I did the research and asked for a certain item, someone could bring it in.
Perhaps you asked for "hose"? Air brake "hose" is not what I am talking about and would NOT be suitable.
Air Brake "tubing", SAE J844. It is all nylon.
I hopefully would not advise anyone to use something unsafe in a fuel system. I kind of need my license to maintain a living. You want air brake tubing, SAE J844. Straight un-reinforced tubing in nylon, polyurethane, HDPE or PTFE would be also be suitable. The air brake tubing tends to be more robust as 3/8" and larger it is reinforced and this makes it more kink resistant.
I'm not saying that your write up on the new fuel system was not well researched and am positive that you researched to get and use the proper materials.
My comment was more to show that not all of what I would call "plastic air brake line", is equal. The United Truck shop carries what I would call by a generic name, "plastic air brake line", and it is just for air brakes and they have rubber hose, just for fuel lines. When I asked for "plastic fuel line", they don't carry it. I was sent to Gregg's and there they made sure that the plastic lines they stock were actually made for my intended use in diesel fuel service. I could have asked for "plastic air brake line" and got it. This is not suitable for diesel fuel lines but I would have got what I asked for.
All plastic air brake tubing is made from nylon and is suitable for fuel use. I'm slightly more qualified than the people at the parts stores in the materials selection for piping systems.
I was out measuring the tubes today and it looks like I have both 5/16 and 3/8's lines but it appears the 300tdi has a bit different configuration. But this info is a big step forward to sorting that out. Thanks for the info John....much appreciated sir! ;)