Alberta Land Rover Enthusiasts Club Forum
Classifieds => Wanted => Topic started by: Already a Rover on August 07, 2015, 08:27 PM
...that is the question. Does anyone out there have a good turbo-diesel I could drop into my S2a??
I'm not happy with 70 hp, but wondering if modifying the original gas engine is the way to go. One non-tangible is maintaining the re-sale value by keeping it original.
Jim
Jim, this seems at best, a bad idea.
Given that your S2a has an operating, non faulted engine, I miss what the diesel would achieve. And turbo diesel seems possible, but a bit of a mismatch, unless you have an LWB. We all know about the Mercedes conversion, which would be appropriate here, to spare using up a genuine LR engine.
you could find an engine in a rusted 1980's Mercedes car at the pick and pull for very little, order the conversion kit from overseas and get started. Or do the same with a Perkins engine from a scrapped combine harvester.
Again, I don't know why you would. It would be more reasonable to start a new project this way. Even that is a bit difficult.
if you're unhappy with the small power of your existing gas engine, wouldn't you transplant a larger gasoline engine? Perhaps others have installed six or eight cylinder units?
Could you sell your truck and buy another for the same price with a fitted engine and the work completed?
Jim you have got to remember that the 2A is something close to if not more than 50 years old.
You add a more powerful engine then the gear box or axles may not take this extra power so you need to upgrade. Now your are going faster but the brakes are not up to the task of stopping you, so you upgrade again. You are solving one problem and starting many more.
This all cost $$ and time you could be using to enjoy what you have. You want to adjust your thinking and start enjoying a more relaxing drive at a slower speed.
I'd say if you want power and get places quicker, change vehicles to a Range Rover, maybe Discovery or heaven forbid, a Hummer. Now you get places faster but afraid to actually really go off roading for fear of scratching paint. ;D
My 2 cents.
Bruce
Lots of folks were doing the turbo diesel upgrade in the UK, but the RHD is more condusive to such endevours (dealing with the turbo location and steering). As long as it was driven sensibly it worked just fine. But as Bruce says....it won't be cheap. But it will be quick!
Tony Smith installed a 2.5N/A into his 2A and that thing went like stink, easily doing 120 on the hwy. Don't know how..but it was quick.
The UK diesel swap thing was mainly driven by the exceeding high cost of petrol and the abundance of cheap 200/300Tdi 28mpg diesels from rotten Disco's. None of these are a factor in Canada so it's not really a sensible option. Even in the UK, a Series LR is worth more with its orginal power plant than a more modern transplant.
Long story short, it's old an slow. You can make it new and fast but then it wouldn't be a series LR any more.
Hey Binch - now there is a 2.5l NA diesel up for sale... I have been told without a turbo there is little difference to a 2.25 tho. I love the idea of a simple swap, just need a LITTLE more power so I can drive up hills without becoming a road hazard, especially in the winter when (other cars) braking can be dangerous in itself!
Thanks - hopeful.
Jim
If you look to the UK you can pick up a 2.5 turbo diesel (NOT TDI) that will bridge that power gap. folks over there were throwing them away as soon as they could get their hands on a 200/300tdi. Just have to have a look on the UK based forums. If you want I can put you in touch with a gentleman with used parts connections over there. Just send me an email please ;-)
On a series, the 2.5NA is not a straight swap. The injector pump fouls the right side engine mount. Not a huge job, but cutting and welding required. Fitting any of the turbo models is much more involved including the fact that the gearbox will die. Lots of writeups about.
The 2.5NA power is about the same, but you get to use half the fuel.
AAArgghhh
Jim, don't worry about the speed.... Everyone will be slowing down to take a look at your SWB as you putter along anyway. ;)
Besides....the first rule in Italian driving
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjGXn249Fc0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjGXn249Fc0)
;D
Be prepared for slow revving, very noisy, likely smokey progress from a 2.5NA diesel. If 2.5NA was already fitted then I'd leave it because is nothing really really bad about them and they are robust but honestly I'd rather have a petrol 2.25L in a Series LR. It's just not worth effort or assault on the senses for 0 power gain a few more MPG.
If need more jam then a Rover V8 will solve that problem but create far more in the process.
My 2c
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1024254790941346&id=196521073714726
So from your other post, you're switching to diesel because your bores are worn on your present petrol engine and you lack power. You noted crankcase breather pours oil when running and removed. Wouldn't it be more worthwhile to replace the rings or sleeves on your present engine? We've found a machine shop here that is promising for budget resleeving of 4 and 6 cylinder blocks.
Thanks ALL! IF I could find a good diesel then I might go that way and put on a Turbo. It would probably be cheaper too. Otherwise, yes, probably stick with the gas. I have no experience with turbos, but see the link to a turbo-gas Series. Hmmm. There is a guy in Calgary who has one even. I don't need to decide now - another 2/3 weeks in Japan still. I do want to stick with the 2a.
Ugly - If the bores need re-doing, I will be interested.
Jim
You do not want to put a turbo on an NA as they will die quickly. This has been proven long ago. You need to get the engines that have the turbo to start with. They are built much stronger to deal with the power.
Hi - if I was home, I would have that gas engine rebuilt by now and be happy with it, but I'm learning a lot. Thanks (you know who you are, I hope).
I've even considered the Mercedes 617 5 speed diesel conversion.... One think I HAVE decided on is it would be much better to get SOME engine and rebuild it, then swap into mine, so I can still go fishing. Somebody 'give' me an engine!!
Is there a place in town called The Rover Store?
Gawd, I don't want more noise than I already have though - diesels really that noisy?
(Anybody know anything about drilling oil wells?? We have drilled < 200m in a month.)
I think I'm turning Japanese (humming...)
Jim
Quote from: Already a Rover on September 23, 2015, 06:11 AM
(Anybody know anything about drilling oil wells?? We have drilled < 200m in a month.)
Jim
Did they forget to put the drill bit on? ;D
My guess is the drilling crew is enjoying the free trip to Japan.
Quote from: Already a Rover on September 23, 2015, 06:11 AM
(Anybody know anything about drilling oil wells?? We have drilled < 200m in a month.)
Jim
Hi Jim,
If you need a geologist, give me a shout! Not sure I can help with the engine though..
Ian
Yes, old diesels are really noisy.
Merc 617 is not a particularly fantastic either. They are long lasting but that's about all I can say that's good about them.
No, they used a bit. Good question though. We are drilling solid quartz (chert?), things are breaking-down, and - yes - nobody is in a hurry over here; they take an HOUR for lunch, and two coffee breaks. Oh, and an hour for crew-change 2x/day. All you get for a lunch-break in Canada is you get to take one glove off. Bits last 25 hours. And did I mention things are breaking-down?
Part of that month was a 10-day Casing Break. Caught some Japanese Trout! Yes, they really are called "Iwana" trout - tiny, kinda like a Golden Trout (see pics) and there are others I didn't get a chance to catch, they closed the season on me!
But I digress, badly.
How-about a 2.5 bottom-lump with a 2.25 petrol head? Heck, maybe that would give me a 21-1 compression gas-bomb. Or is there a 2.5 petrol head? A nice, simple diesel with a turbo (and intercooler - that would fix it right, Red?) would be awesome, but gas is just fine too.
I'm making the cash while I'm away, so I should ask - haven't read much about rebuilding transmissions (or swapping) anyone got a good link to that? I've been hesitating to ask, but there it is - a big can of worms.
Jim
Yep, Chert is microcrystalline quartz. Pretty compact and hard. But drills are (or should be) made of harder stuff - garnet or corundum would just about do or better still diamond, but depends on the quality I suppose and how they are mounted on the cutting face of the bits. Wouldn't think the chert horizons would be very thick. Best of luck in getting through to a more manageable lithology to speed up the ROP.
Thanks for the insight into local drilling culture and the fishing!
Cheers, Ian
Quote from: Already a Rover on September 23, 2015, 09:06 PM
No, they used a bit. Good question though. We are drilling solid quartz (chert?), things are breaking-down, and - yes - nobody is in a hurry over here; they take an HOUR for lunch, and two coffee breaks. Oh, and an hour for crew-change 2x/day. All you get for a lunch-break in Canada is you get to take one glove off. Bits last 25 hours. And did I mention things are breaking-down?
25 hours out of a bit....ouch, that makes for a lot of pipe tripping. I did get a giggle out of the lunch and coffee breaks though. Its been many decades since I've been on a rig, but it was very much as you say....wolf down a sandwich hopefully somewhere warm (or in the summer, somewhere where the flies wouldn't eat half of it first). Then its right back at it.
Yeah, back in the day when work site safety was a foreign concept and the rig boss would get bonuses for 'not having any accidents'. Like the one incident where the rig boss threatened the worker when he wanted to be taken to the hospital with a crushed foot after a drill pipe came down on it. Yeah...those were the days ::)
I thought there might be a few ex-rig-workers out there.
Not sure it IS chert, there is so much of it. Looks a little bigger than micro-crystalline quartz and doesn't have the fractures and sharp edges, so I would say just quartz - some white, some gray/black. Some larger crystals. Yeah, I carry a lupe. Looks like some banding here and there, which has me puzzled. I think there is a Geo coming, hope he speaks English....
This is a geo-thermal well, btw - drilling for STEAM! I guess they can produce for 10, 20, 30 years.
Yeah, the 'no-accident' bonuses were like $75 a day or something like that.
Anybody tell me where I can find a 2.25 to rebuild then?
Jim
for my 2.25l i put on a 8:1 head, 2" headers and exhaust, and with the overdrive the old goat pulls quite nicely on the highway at 60-70mph.
The gas engine is loud but the diesel would be far worse.
Hi - sorry not to get to this earlier.
Nice to hear, RedGoat! What head did you use, or did you just shave your own?
Same (old) cam?
There are some nice upgrades available, but PRICEY! Just a gas-flowed head will be $1,000!! And the ACR 4-1 header is about the same, but I already have the 2" exhaust.... Where to stop? Why not 9-1??
I really don't want the truck to be FAST, but then there are guys like Red90 who say after upgrading to a gas-flowed head and performance cam the results were disappointing.
Jim
Hi. I guess everybody has already had their say. S*** or get off the pot?
Well after endless reading and almost unanimous testimonials as to the effect, I'm rebuilding my 2.25 with a 9-1 head from ACR and their cam. I think with shipping it will be almost $2,000, in case anyone else is pondering such folly.
I think I mentioned somewhere compression in #3 is zero-ish, so hopefully that is simple-enough to fix, but we will see.
Thanks so much everyone for your input and patience in explaining the ins-and-outs as you see them. I considered everything offered and really wanted a diesel, but then I should just get a Defender....
I'm still thinking I will do the TBI (as long as my friend who is going to do the machining is not too busy) just-because, but probably not until the spring as I have another project on the boil.
Jim
Jim
Jim,
This has been about the longest engine decision in history. I would be extremely surprised if only one problem bore was trouble, and your other bores and rings were as new.
Seems you need the attention of a full rebuild, and there is no shortcut from that. A higher compression performance head on a 2.25 petrol is like having racing tires on a shopping cart. Yes, it is folly.
Even from this far away, without seeing the engine, and only going from what you describe, the minimum you need for this job is removal of your engine, disassembly to block, measurement of existing bores and/or resleeve or oversize pistons, including new rings, replacement of every wear component with new, and rebuild of the engine.
There are no shortcuts to the job, and the NA diesel option is no better, as most of the used ones have simmilar problems to yours.
So, I don't see any decisionmaking on this one, unlike, say, which set of tires to buy.
Quote from: ugly_90 on November 04, 2015, 06:31 AMThis has been about the longest engine decision in history.
Actually pretty fast in this community. The average truck rebuild time is ten years in Alberta....
Quote from: Red90 on November 04, 2015, 08:33 AM
Quote from: ugly_90 on November 04, 2015, 06:31 AMThis has been about the longest engine decision in history.
Actually pretty fast in this community. The average truck rebuild time is ten years in Alberta....
lol, so true. I think its because we are so focused on detail and perfection...er, hmm, maybe not that either ;D
Quote from: Trevor on November 04, 2015, 08:46 AM
lol, so true. I think its because we are so focused on detail and perfectioncheap and lazy and cheaper...er, hmm, maybe not that either ;D
Fixed that for you.
hahaha
Yes, the engine will come all the way out and be stripped, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Old and worn parts on the shopping cart engine will be replaced by new or better :). I'm hoping not to have to re-bore and buy new pistons, that's all! A leak-down test would tell me if valves are the reason for lower compression on the rest of the cylinders, or if it is the bore (I think). But anyway, I will be going away to Japan for 2 more months, so there is no rush, and no worry with money. Heck, I'll save at least $400 not putting gas and oil in the thing....
Part of the reason this decision took so long was because I was away, but there is a LOT of contradictory information out there - part fact, part opinion. I was told early-on, for example, a 2"exhaust would perk the 2.25 up a fair bit and when it didn't, it was because I did not use a magical Rochester carb, which has 10% better flow.... I wanted to wait on the exhaust, but when the manifold went, I thought I would kill two birds with one stone. I now find-out the guy is heavily-medicated and drinks too much on top of it, so now I am more cautious.
It is hard to sift through it all. Unfortunately, the first thing I read I tend to believe. But in this case, that was a lot of negative feedback, such as: "you can't get more power out of a 2.25, leave it as it is" or "the torque will kill your transmission" or "you need a turbo-diesel, buy a Defender." To be fair, most of the flack was on the Guns and Rovers website, including being told to "grow some balls" when it came to noise-suppression. To all you guys out there who don't want to upgrade your S2 - fine. Well-meaning advice, even better. Otherwise, stop raining on my parade. Hahahaha.
I guess there is no reason to expect everyone on the internet to be more discriminating than the Average Joe.... :-\
After ditching the (turbo) diesel idea, various other motors and establishing there is a measure of power to be had in a 2.25, it was just a matter of what I want, and sorting through what works well. I decided to err on the side of more than less, as I only want to do this once.
Perhaps in the end the choice was obvious, I don't know. I don't like paying that much though! I might have been happy with shaving the stock head and using a 2.5 cam; it was a close-call.
Jim
Just an fyiJim, I wasn't thinking of your project specifically....rather I hand in mind the history of projects around these parts.
No-worries, Trevor! I oscillate between a perfectionist and a hacker. I have an aversion to measuring for some reason, but otherwise will spend twice as long as I should on a lot of things for that extra 10%.
J