Alberta Land Rover Enthusiasts Club Forum
General => Technical Discussions => Topic started by: s3landy on March 02, 2019, 02:52 PM
Short story; put dual batteries in my 130, cranks great but then the original starter started to act up when cold. The solenoid would not kick out far enough to engage the flywheel and it would just spin. Once in a while it would catch and start.
Pulled starter numerous times, cleaned, filed brushes, emery clothed armature, checked everything etc. All looked good, but installed and the same problem when cold(-20ish).
Bought new starter and it is doing the same thing. Got me stumped, anyone have any ideas?
Thanks,
Mike
Have you checked the battery ground to the engine?
I will check tomorrow and post, thanks
Check battery cable conections and the cables themselves for corosion. Old cables can develop internal resistance due to corrosion. Ground cables and conection to.
I don't seem to have a ground strap to the engine itself. My ground strap comes from the battery to the exhaust hanger and then carries onto the transfer case. I cleaned both of those connections. The cables themselves look good and not corroded on the batteries. I never had these issues when I had a single battery, that is why it is so strange. I had to go somewhere first thing this morning so I won't know until later tonight or tomorrow whether my cleaning the connections helped.
Mike
Perhaps it is something you did with the dual batteries. How exactly are they wired up?
I just wired them in parallel
The ign switch could be failing. They fall apart internally and cause exactly this problem.
My 2c.
I did think of that and tried a jumper direct from the battery.
Mike
I had a similar fault with a failing replacement aftermarket ignition switch in my 90. the troubleshooting was much simpler for me, looking at the back of the switch, it was already falling apart. I replaced with genuine Lucas, and its running again.
Do you have a voltmeter to go over the circuit and record voltages to chassis?
I assume you already have the wiring diagram for that truck.
A very useful tool in DC electrical is the DC-type clamp-on ammeter, which will allow you to step through the problem and record currents, without disconnecting anything. The DC variant clamp-on is more expensive and rarer than an AC version, you may have to borrow that tool. I have found it only affordable as an aftermarket meter. Most clamp-on ammeters are AC only.
I'd be looking for a high resistance to the pull in solenoid circuit.
Well, no joy today, cleaning the grounds never helped. Onward I will look.
Mike
There may also be a relay in the start circuit. It depends on the year and engine. If so, it is worth checking.
I agree the ignition switches are prone to failure and only to use OEM (Lucas) branded switches.
I did some testing today and this is what I found;
Voltage readings;
Batteries-12.79v
Large wire on starter-12.44v
ignition wire(on starter)solenoid-11.4v
Ignition switch(power in)-12.44v
ignition switch(power out-access)-12.08v
ignition switch(power out to solenoid)-11.4v
It seems that the ignition switch is causing the drop? Could this be, not quite enough voltage to engage the solenoid all the way?
Can it be taken apart and cleaned/fixed, or is it better to just order a new one?
Mike
Are these readings the voltage drops while cranking?
No these were just static readings. The ignition wire on the starter is actually reading around 11.6,11.7v while cranking.
Mike
Sounds like the switch is in bad shape. What year and engine are we talking about?
It is a 1996 130 with a 300 tdi
You have a 10% voltage drop which is high. Try using electrical connector lubricant to improve bonding and connectivity.
Check wiring loom for perched wires or stripped insulation.
Those two items with what you did so far should eliminate a potential wiring issue.
Emad
Quote from: s3landy on March 05, 2019, 01:08 PM
It is a 1996 130 with a 300 tdi
Okay, so that matters. There is a relay between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid. You "may" also have an immobilizer in the line. This is all very important to troubleshoot the system. See attached. I would start by looking at the engine fuse box and the wires from the battery to it and back into the vehicle. Make sure the fuses are good. Then have a look at the starter relay.
The relay is at the bottom of the fuse panel inside. I tried swapping the two relays out and No difference. I don't have an immobilizer. Fuses in the engine compartment are good. If the voltage is higher coming into the ignition switch than it is, going out, wouldn't that mean the drop should be in the switch?
The switch does not matter as the relay is sending power to the starter.
So I guess I should check input at the relay?
Follow the wiring back until you find the location of the voltage drop.
As you might be lacking a high-current ammeter, what do the headlights do while attempting to crank? You would have the headlamps on before attempting to start, having an assistant watch them for you.
Do they work at all? Do they dim slightly with your starting? Is there no effect to those lamps?
I will check again when I get back from work. Gives me lots to dig into, thanks
Mike
Mike
Did you have any troubles before installing the second battery?
The only thing I can add is to pull the starter and have a look at the ring gear on the flywheel. An engine always stops on one of 4 places (on a 4cyl, one of 6 places on a 6cyl and so on). The ring gear eventually takes a beating and causes starter engaging issues. One quick way to test it is to bar the engine over a bit and see if the problem goes away. If it does, your ring gear is likely the issue.
Good luck
Ian
Depending on the results of that headlight test while attempting the crank, the same assistant can provide a moderate tapping on a failing starter with a smaller hammer while attempting to crank. This can allow the starter to spin, and has got me out of jams before on some old trucks.
Did either starter spin when removed from vehicle and tested on a battery?