Alberta Land Rover Enthusiasts Club Forum
General => Non Technical Discussion => Topic started by: Red90 on November 23, 2018, 02:45 PM
Looks like they are turning a lot of the current PLUZs into parks and creating one massive PLUZ for the entire forestry north of Kananaskis up to Drayton Valley, called the "West Country Public Land Use Zone". There are no "rules" yet planned for the PLUZ, but it gives them the tools to add rules at any time.
https://talkaep.alberta.ca/bighorn-country
Beat me to it John!
As an aside, I did send an email into them regarding 4x4 use. They do not mention 4x4's anywhere that I can find in this package, although they do discuss OHV use for each new park or wildlife area.
I will post what I hear back. I suspect it will be like the other areas and 4x4 use will be banned outright, but we will see.
For the large PLUZ they say no change to motorized access. The other areas were already off limits.
::) wonder if this will lead to yet more restrictions.
Kinda points that way.......
Sent from my XP7700 using Tapatalk
I went through the website today. Hunting groups are submitting their feedback on this consultation process. You have till Jan 31, 2019 to submit your feedback. I would encourage everybody to make time to review and respond to this. Copy your response as well to Jason Nixon, opposition MLA for Sundre, AB. He has raised the concern on this process in the legislature this session. Let your voice be heard loud and clear.
Emad
I came across this today on Facebook. Interesting comparison of how these things are planned and executed.
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The face book group that is advocating to oppose the the current public land use process:
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That Y2Y group is quite well funded, and very nefarious. Yellowstone to Yukon Conservation Group.
It's backed by quite a few US big money groups that have targeted Alberta industry directly. Their primary mandate is to shut industry down along this corridor, but they push that under the guise of restructuring usage areas. Hence why you see all the motorized restrictions, that's a requirement to keep industry out, and it screws us in the 4x4/OHV space as a happy secondary affect. In doing so they not only destroy industry (forestry, oil & gas, mining), but it also positions them to close the passes to pipelines, additional rail networks, etc.
They aren't registered as a lobby group in Alberta so Notley and her politburo couldn't bring them in as lobbyists, which is their common roll. To get around that her politburo has hired them a "consultants" at the department level. They have a nice shiney website, BIG funding, and they spin a lot of bogus science (much like the IPCC) that appeals to the sheeple.
They're doing an effective job though, and they are most certainly winning in their attempts to shut our industries down along this corridor and roll back motorized recreational activities. Hopefully we can kick the communists out of our provincial government in the spring and run the Y2Y folks out before its too late.
Thank you Trevor for the reference. I checked them out and some of their research and publications. It does explain the massive changes that we are seeing in the parks regulations. The watershed protection strategy plays strongly in restricting the resource industry from expanding in these areas.
Love how the funding flows through the borders and how it affects our political process.
Quote from: B-Red on December 11, 2018, 05:55 AM
Love how the funding flows through the borders and how it affects our political process.
Yes, the old adage of "follow the money" has never been more true than today. The interests of nation states, corporations and special interest groups blur these days as money flows through organizations to empower the obtainment of objectives that are meant to destroy entire industries and economies. It's a form of covert war and Alberta has been on the forefront of the battle for some time based on our oil and gas economy.
It's pretty amazing when you sit back and look at the scope of the attacks. We see it from Maurice Strong and his Liberal cadre who, via his UN connections, formed the IPCC and initiated the Global Hoax. This ultimately culminating in the empowerment of governments to initiate trillions of dollars of UN sponsored taxation at the nation-state level, not to combat a pending climate catastrophe, but simply to do what governments do....tax. All for a fraud that is backed by 0 scientific evidence and a bunch of really crappy computer modelling.
From our southern neighbor we have special interests piggy-backing on the IPCC fraud, utilizing it to further their own corporate interests; the self-determination of the US oil and gas industry at the expense of Alberta's. The US is quickly becoming energy self-sufficient and Alberta is being blocked and corralled at every turn, in part via funding from these interests to block pipeline projects. Keystone XL is in limp mode, Trans Mountain is dead. Yet how many inter-state pipelines get torpedoed down in the US? There's a reason Enbridge and Tran Canada are effectively HQ'd out of the US now. These things are not coincidences. The investment capital that was once destined for Alberta is funneling south.
Don't get me wrong though, the Turd in Ottawa is a critical factor in this fight. Liberals have sought the destruction of Alberta's economy since oil was found in Leduc over half a century ago. We are first and foremost being sold out by Central Canada.
But that's the rub really. Canadians don't have our back. Nothing new, they never have. But oddly Albertan's are reluctant to fight back...REALLY fight back that is. They refuse to demand from their governments that they protect Alberta interests first and foremost, reclaiming powers of taxation, policing, militia, criminal code and judicial, etc..."Oh, how brutishly un-Canadian, we can't do that!" is the response. Well, Quebec already has done many of these things, and they're siphoning 11 billion a year in transfer payments (soon to be 13 billion next year) from Canada, and per capita, largely us. Take on the feds directly and aggressively on the carbon pricing scam? Take on the special interests directly and aggressively on their crap science and bogus climate models? "Oh, what about the poor planet!?"
I'm involved in political parties at the ground level in Alberta, and we desperately need people demanding from our MLA's and MP's these sorts of actions.
As Martin Luther King Jr once said, "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent on things that matter."
Momentum in voicing strong opposition to this initiative is building up in a strong direction. Those who have time to attend this should go. It's impact is from Rocky Mountain to Drayton Valley, all way back against the western slopes and trunk 40.
Monday, January 7, 2019
Drayton Valley – Drop-in Public Information Session
MacKenzie Conference Centre
5745 - 45 Avenue
6:00 to 9:00 pm
Ask Questions, have your position heard!
NOTE: hosted by AEP
There's one scheduled for Edmonton as well...
Jan 15, 4 - 9 pm
Radisson Edmonton South 4440 Gateway Boulevard
Hmmm I think I'd like to attend the one in Edmonton..... 8)
Don't hold your breath fellows. Big brother thinks people who show up are scary and intimidating hooligans. They cancelled the remaining four meetings. They blame social media and that misinformation is being spread. I truly find that to be very insulting. You form your own opinion.
https://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?xID=623133C1EF930-CCDF-1345-57F4BE8B16565253
Quote from: B-Red on January 05, 2019, 03:02 PM
Don't hold your breath fellows. Big brother thinks people who show up are scary and intimidating hooligans. They cancelled the remaining four meetings. They blame social media and that misinformation is being spread. I truly find that to be very insulting. You form your own opinion.
https://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?xID=623133C1EF930-CCDF-1345-57F4BE8B16565253
Actually those claims of threats and intimidation by the public ON the public would not be in the least bit surprising. It only takes one idiot and it paints the picture for everyone. So we must do our best to represent ourselves above all that nonsense, and be active but respectful and professional. ;)
Quote from: B-Red on January 05, 2019, 03:02 PM
Don't hold your breath fellows. Big brother thinks people who show up are scary and intimidating hooligans. They cancelled the remaining four meetings. They blame social media and that misinformation is being spread. I truly find that to be very insulting. You form your own opinion.
https://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?xID=623133C1EF930-CCDF-1345-57F4BE8B16565253
Truth is the new hate speech. :/
That's a real shame they did this. When the people you elect take the position that only they know what is good for you, and actively work to keep the public's voice out of the process, then there is a fundamental problem.
There IS a fundamental problem: most of the electorate LIKE it that way. Saves having to actually THINK about issues.
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IMO, nothing is any different today than ever. There were just as many wackos before the internet as there is today. You would never hear from them. Now they have a platform to communicate with each other publicly and we can all see it if we choose. It also makes it easy for them to work each other up and organize.
That aside, public consultations never work and have never impacted anything materially. The decisions always have and always will be made by the bureaucracy who know how to expertly control the strings of the elected officials.
Quote from: binch on January 05, 2019, 05:00 PM
Quote from: B-Red on January 05, 2019, 03:02 PM
Don't hold your breath fellows. Big brother thinks people who show up are scary and intimidating hooligans. They cancelled the remaining four meetings. They blame social media and that misinformation is being spread. I truly find that to be very insulting. You form your own opinion.
https://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?xID=623133C1EF930-CCDF-1345-57F4BE8B16565253
Actually those claims of threats and intimidation by the public ON the public would not be in the least bit surprising. It only takes one idiot and it paints the picture for everyone. So we must do our best to represent ourselves above all that nonsense, and be active but respectful and professional. ;)
If you think this has anything whatsoever to do with their mytihcal bullying, I have some swamp land you might want to buy...it's got a bridge too!
The discussions taking place on social media is more of an eye opener.
The last consultation session had six RCMP officers present. Not one single complaint was filled.
The Reeve in Brauzau County issued a statement expressing his disappointment and frustration with cancelling this process. A rally was being organized at 5 pm before the event.
Regardless of how this will move, we should conduct ourselves with the good stewardship of use of the land and conduct of professionalism.
Quote from: B-Red on January 06, 2019, 08:59 AM
The Reeve in Brazeau County issued a statement expressing his disappointment and frustration with cancelling this process. A rally was being organized at 5 pm before the event.
I would have liked to have heard what the Reeve's opinion on this matter was. Oil and gas are the main industry out here and by the sounds of it, the government's proposal would have a huge impact in a huge area. Hopefully the public can see how the land use restrictions will really effect their lively hood and the future to their families. Will we be able to enjoy the beauty of the Bighorn only from existing walking trails or from our cars on the existing highways??
Quote from: camo388 on January 06, 2019, 01:57 PM
Quote from: B-Red on January 06, 2019, 08:59 AM
The Reeve in Brazeau County issued a statement expressing his disappointment and frustration with cancelling this process. A rally was being organized at 5 pm before the event.
I would have liked to have heard what the Reeve's opinion on this matter was. Oil and gas are the main industry out here and by the sounds of it, the government's proposal would have a huge impact in a huge area. Hopefully the public can see how the land use restrictions will really effect their lively hood and the future to their families. Will we be able to enjoy the beauty of the Bighorn only from existing walking trails or from our cars on the existing highways??
They had some pretty significant resistance forming against them this time, and as Emad noted above in one of his links, some of these groups have uncovered the real dirt on what the Notley crew have been up to and the organizations (Y2Y) they've parachuted (illegally) in.
I suspect that is at the root of their bogus harassment story. It allows them to tank public discourse and push this through. Job killing? Yup, absolutely. Access restricting? Definitely, especially if you are a 4x4 or OHV user.
There where posts regarding the aftermath of the Castle area park conversion. The ATV club president was identifying how they were promised in person that all the trails will remain. He says they hardly have any left for access. The plane crash site was mentioned as an example.
The public consultation process as process can be very productive. The mayor of Sundre had an interview on CBC770am about this. When they had AHS looking at closing 15 bids, they did public consultation and it resulted in good engagement and results for the community. He mentioned that this Bighorn consultation is done without having the plan properly finished.
They extended the deadline to Feb 15. With elections looming doin, we wait to see what will happen.
On a separate note, I visited Wells, BC a few years ago. I met with some mining and offroad folks there. It seems that Yanks Peak was earlier open to offroad use, until some city folks from Quesnel came in with their Jeeps, high rev's, and wide tires, destroying an alpine meadow.
It seems unnecessary damage. We seem to have a sales tax, a carbon tax, but no idiot tax. Up here there's lots of idiots in jacked up trucks blowing black smoke on the highway and bush. Remote provincial rec areas around here are constantly full of ATV's in the summer, gunshots are common as their guns need testing and bottles need breaking I suppose.
Other people's children. How do you fix stupid?
I agree John. Rocky area becomes ATV city on the weekends last time I was there.
MOAB as a very well used areas for recreation and camping. Ironically, it looked clean and untouched when I was there last time. Access was patrolled. Yet I don't recall being stoped or asked on any of these trails.
The other thread I started about BC identifies some good solutions for these problems.
Quote from: ugly_90 on January 08, 2019, 10:04 AM
gunshots are common as their guns need testing and bottles need breaking I suppose.
Guns are meant to be shot, just like Land Rovers are meant to be driven! Mind you, they seem to get annoyed when I shoot at Liberals, so targets are the next best thing I guess.
At least they told us in advance that these parks are being created even if they do not care what we think. In the past, they just made new parks without telling anyone. You just found a park boundary sign one day on your favourite 4WD trail.
Creating protected areas won't stop morons from abusing them. They are already breaking the rules and will go and tear it up anyway. Especially with the super vague information they put out (or don't put out at all?). All that happens is the vast majority of regular folks that follow the rules will stop going and the morons will never get reported.
They can turn the entire province into park for all I care. Why not bring back prohibition on alcohol while they are at it?
This whole situation in Alberta is so ridiculous at the moment, I can't even....
In a recent discussion with a park ranger during the Outdoors and Boat show in Edmonton, I brought out the issue with the off-road classifications. He identified the following:
OHV represents vehicles that do not carry license plates to drive on regular highways and roads. This covers quads, side by sides, dirt bikes and such. They do require insurance to be on the trails.
Highway vehicles are vehicles with license plates and insurance to drive on regular highways and can go on cutlines. They can't go on trails.
PLUZ areas provide marked trails for OHVS and Highway Vehicles.
Hunting seasons opens up some trails for highway vehicle use.
Local Parks offices across the province are best to contact before an off-roading trip.
Interestingly, a vehicle without a license plate and insured as OHV use can be used on the trails. So, a Landrover or your five ton cargo truck fits this exemption !!
Obviously, there is some work we can do. It's an election month. I am making the effort to talk to the candidates about a better definition for what vehicles can and can't do and move to a width and weight classification. Associate that with a permit/pass that eliminates the guess work.
Cloaborative lobbying and effort can work. Make your voice heard.
Emad
That is not quite right. Most areas have restrictions on the size of OHVs. Usually it is by weight. Sometimes it is by size.
It varies with each PLUZ which makes it confusing. Trucks do not fit in the size limits.
I thought all quads using any crown land were required to have licenses and insurance. It caused a problem on lands bordering BC/AB as the BC riders that crossed the borders were getting tickets by the AFS wardens/rangers. ???
Quote from: binch on March 24, 2019, 02:46 PM
I thought all quads using any crown land were required to have licenses and insurance. It caused a problem on lands bordering BC/AB as the BC riders that crossed the borders were getting tickets by the AFS wardens/rangers. ???
I believe that is correct Bill, insurance and registration/licensing (whatever they call it) are required for OHV's.
Regarding the size requirements per PLUZ, to the best of my knowledge the different requirements per PLUZ have been done away with. I believe they simply deisgnate by OHV (which we are not) and highway vehicle (which we are, and which are allowed nowhere). We'd have to pull up the regs again though as they were changing over the last few years.
I think most PLUZ's now except McLean Creek do not allow 4x4's.
https://www.alberta.ca/motorized-recreation-on-public-land.aspx?utm_source=redirector#toc-1
Here is the law, page 140: http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Acts/t06.pdf
You could define a Defender within what is written. Not a well written law.
QuoteOff-highway Vehicles
Definitions
117 In this Part
(a) "off-highway vehicle" means any motorized mode of
transportation built for cross-country travel on land, water,
snow, ice or marsh or swamp land or on other natural
terrain and, without limiting the generality of the
foregoing, includes, when specifically designed for such
travel,
(i) 4-wheel drive vehicles,
(ii) low pressure tire vehicles,
(iii) motorcycles and related 2-wheel vehicles,
(iv) amphibious machines,
(v) all terrain vehicles,
(vi) miniature motor vehicles,
(vii) snow vehicles,
(viii) minibikes, and
(ix) any other means of transportation that is propelled by
any power other than muscular power or wind,
but does not include
(x) motor boats, or
(xi) any other vehicle exempted from being an offhighway vehicle by regulation;
(b) "vehicle" means a device in, on or by which a person or
thing may be transported or drawn and includes a
combination of vehicles but does not include a mobility
aid.
RSA 2000 cT-6 s117;2016 c14 s12
Quote from: Red90 on March 24, 2019, 03:43 PM
Here is the law, page 140: http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Acts/t06.pdf
You could define a Defender within what is written. Not a well written law.
That sure seems to be the case doesn't it!??! Any vehicle built for.... and the land rovers sure fit that bill. But the whole thing sure is a head scratcher trying to sort it all out. Falls under the category of 'Baffle them with B.S." doesn't it.... :o
I agree Bill. That's the feeling I got when I was asking the question.
I am asking for a permit sticker that says my vehicle is such and when I look at PLUZ maps, I expect to see where such designation can travel. You think they would figure that out.
MOAB was such an eye opener of how good partnership between user groups and government can lead to a vibrant recreational site with tourism benefits for enjoyment of the land in a responsible manor.
Just looking around to see if there are still any size rules.
Willow Creek, under 800 pounds, https://www.alberta.ca/livingstone.aspx?utm_source=redirector Interestingly, they have not set the trails yet for this new PLUZ. They do say there will be trails for highway vehicles....but I don't expect much.
This is from the Livingstone Draft plan.
QuoteSummer motorized trails will be classified by vehicle type in
the short term (OHV and Single Track). As designated trails
are assessed and upgraded as required, the designation
will shift to a vehicle width based system. This system will
use a combination of notice (through Public Land Use Zone
maps) and signage, as well as physical barriers to only permit
vehicles that meet the designated width.
One of the Ghost PLUZ maps still shows width regulations. https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/2538d49d-1dd2-4e67-bbad-64f074e432e8/resource/1f698538-a522-4d06-b84f-81d24f8ececb/download/ghostpluzmap-may2018.pdf
OHVs:
QuoteMotorized vehicles with an
overall width up to and
including 1.6m (65").
Mclean Creek: https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/ad3afdb2-d493-48d8-90df-48cdc974aa44/resource/c72327ba-d7b9-4b1c-9de1-883c98e872c9/download/kananaskispluz-brochuremap-may2018.pdf
OHVs:
QuoteTrails open for off-highway vehicles with an
overall width under 1.2 m (50").
That section of the Act is interpretive, and that subsection is by no means exhaustive in its scope. The courts have interpreted the law differently than you are reading it. They are ruling alongside these parameter:
Who is a Motorized User?
Motorized users are outdoor enthusiasts who use Off-Highway Vehicles (OHVs) or, where permitted, road legal vehicles for off-road travel.
OHV
Alberta Traffic Act defines an OHV as a(an):
Amphibious craft
Dune buggies
Off-road motorcycles
Quads and trikes
Snowmobiles
Trucks, jeeps and modified 4x4 vehicles may not be considered OHVs.
...this is a snippet from the document John linked above.
I know this to be fact because several friends from the NA4WDA were ticketed in an "OHV only" area in the Coalspur PLUZ. They fought the ticket on the very definition referenced above in the Traffic Act...that they were in fact OHV's...and they lost. They did hire council as well. Worth noting one of the rigs was offroad only, requiring trailering in and certainly not driveable on streets/highways. Did not matter, it is still not an OHV vehicle in the eyes of courts.
Quote from: Red90 on March 25, 2019, 09:41 AM
Just looking around to see if there are still any size rules.
Willow Creek, under 800 pounds, https://www.alberta.ca/livingstone.aspx?utm_source=redirector Interestingly, they have not set the trails yet for this new PLUZ. They do say there will be trails for highway vehicles....but I don't expect much.
This is from the Livingstone Draft plan.
QuoteSummer motorized trails will be classified by vehicle type in
the short term (OHV and Single Track). As designated trails
are assessed and upgraded as required, the designation
will shift to a vehicle width based system. This system will
use a combination of notice (through Public Land Use Zone
maps) and signage, as well as physical barriers to only permit
vehicles that meet the designated width.
Good finds John. Whatever the intent, there is clearly a lot of the old system in place. As I noted in my last post the courts have a more restrictive interpretation insofar as Coal Branch PLUZ (I was mistakenly calling it by its old name, Coalspur) is concerned. however insofar as its website is concerned, it does not have any grey area. OHV's only, and that does not include 4x4's.
https://www.alberta.ca/coal-branch.aspx
I would be curious to see how the courts are ruling in the other PLUZ's which have disparate info. I would suspect they are following the guidelines laid out here...
https://www.alberta.ca/public-land-use-zones.aspx
The only thing that is clear is that nobody in control of any of these areas is in the least bit interested in allowing any form of motorized off road recreation by a road going 4WD.
I'm not sure why this is the case? Perhaps regular citizens are not trustworthy enough to be left unsupervised in the wilderness??
Quote from: Matt H on March 25, 2019, 01:06 PM
I'm not sure why this is the case?
They need bones to throw to the groups that want zero motorized access. It is an easy bone to throw because the "4x4" crowd has given up fighting and has become too small to put up a fight. The OHV groups are still big enough to cause a suitable stink to completely prevent their access. It is all about who creates the most noise and who is really in charge within the bureaucracy. Logic, science and reasonable discourse are not part of any decisions.
Quote from: Trevor on March 25, 2019, 10:47 AM
That section of the Act is interpretive, and that subsection is by no means exhaustive in its scope. The courts have interpreted the law differently than you are reading it. They are ruling alongside these parameter:
What would be nice is if they set a measurable parameter in law and then we don't need to worry. The 65" width (side by sides are 64") would be a good one.
Quote from: Red90 on March 25, 2019, 09:47 AM
One of the Ghost PLUZ maps still shows width regulations. https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/2538d49d-1dd2-4e67-bbad-64f074e432e8/resource/1f698538-a522-4d06-b84f-81d24f8ececb/download/ghostpluzmap-may2018.pdf
OHVs:
QuoteMotorized vehicles with an
overall width up to and
including 1.6m (65").
So, if I'm not mistaken the defender and series just squeak in on the width restriction for the Green, Purple and Red tracks. But under the right hand columns it says X trucks. What is a truck then? :o
Trucks are 65 to 98" wide.
Quote from: Red90 on March 25, 2019, 09:09 PM
Trucks are 65 to 98" wide.
A Lightweight is only 60" wide. So am I a truck or side by side? Is weight a factor as well?
Quote from: Red90 on March 25, 2019, 01:29 PM
They need bones to throw to the groups that want zero motorized access. It is an easy bone to throw because the "4x4" crowd has given up fighting and has become too small to put up a fight. The OHV groups are still big enough to cause a suitable stink to completely prevent their access. It is all about who creates the most noise and who is really in charge within the bureaucracy. Logic, science and reasonable discourse are not part of any decisions.
It sounds like it's time to have a 4x4 rally at the Legeslator building. A drive by the community with a media blitz demanding clarity on these definitions or a petition.
Quote from: camo388 on March 25, 2019, 10:46 PM
Quote from: Red90 on March 25, 2019, 09:09 PM
Trucks are 65 to 98" wide.
A Lightweight is only 60" wide. So am I a truck or side by side? Is weight a factor as well?
As far as the Ghost PLUZ goes, you can drive on the OHV trails. But...as Trevor states, they will probably still fine you and you will lose in court.