Alberta Land Rover Enthusiasts Club Forum
General => Non Technical Discussion => Topic started by: Trevor on March 26, 2015, 06:57 PM
It's Easter Jeep Safari time, which means its also time for Jeep to gather up its array of concept vehicles for this year and show them off to the fans. Jeep does some rather weird and surprising things for this event. They actually send people...lots of people...and tents to display things...and engineers to talk about cool technical stuff using complicated terms and slide rulers and such...and sales and marketing guys to provide, well, whatever value it is sales and marketing guys provide...
http://www.chron.com/cars/article/Jeep-celebrates-Easter-Safari-with-7-new-concept-6158842.php#photo-7715044
Those folks that came down to the LRNR last fall will be able to compare the above with the rather epic support Land Rover provides for the National Rally down in Moab. It was heartfelt and almost brought me to tears because....
...they sent a driver trainer....who could only stay a few hours....with a slide show....detailing for us how unimportant we were compared to their real customers who, I quote, "drive the new Range Rovers as their 4th or 5th car."
Jeep better watch out!
And it was nice of Jeep to build the new Defender 110 seeing as there is no hope in hell Land Rover will do it.
(http://ww2.hdnux.com/photos/35/33/43/7715037/3/622x350.jpg)
I got a note from one of the fellas in the LR club near Heighington UK saying he was heading there for the big Jeep do and asked if I had any suggestions.hahahaha I suggested going at another time when it was so damned busy!!!! I'm sure he's in for a real treat and will have lots to tell the rest of the club about.
After the LR rep finished his presentation at the 2014 LRNR I realized that LR, under Tata's ownership, just don't care at all. But then again the aftermarket vendors effort was even worse. They didn't even show up!
All in all a very poor showing for the LR faithful.
Imagine if LR showed the same sort of grass roots support that the Jeep guy's enjoy? I'd probably pass out!!
Quote from: Red90 on March 26, 2015, 07:28 PM
And it was nice of Jeep to build the new Defender 110 seeing as there is no hope in hell Land Rover will do it.
(http://ww2.hdnux.com/photos/35/33/43/7715037/3/622x350.jpg)
That's one concept vehicle I really hope makes it to the production line.
Reminds of an old 45 Series Land Cruiser Troopy.
Quote from: Matt H on March 27, 2015, 06:01 AMReminds of an old 45 Series Land Cruiser Troopy.
You do know Matt that Toyota still builds them like this, more or less, although they finally did update the body style a bit.
http://www.toyota.com.au/landcruiser-70-series/specifications/wagon-workmate
I saw an old toyota fj pickup yesterday with 40" plus tires on it. very clean and pretty in show room condition......but wouldn't want to have it on any kind of side angle,
Here's a more detailed look at the Defender, from Jeep. Man I hope they push this one from concept into production. This has the potential to be a pretty impressive rig, and it would be beautiful to see them rub LR's nose in it. I'd certainly look very seriously at buying one of these.
Oh the shame of it....... :-\
Quote from: binch on April 08, 2015, 10:08 PM
Oh the shame of it....... :-\
Look at it this way Bill. Its not as important what logo sits above the grill. What is important is that there are companies out there still building these types of vehicles for us and supporting this segment of the market.
I bet an original late 80's-90's era TDI Disco 1, Nissan Patrol, 80 Series LC, Mitsubishi Pajero or Isuzu Trooper could all run rings around that concept in all areas save factory warranty and bolt on modifications. Jeep are very late to this particular party.
However, It's interesting to see Jeep acknowledging the mainstream overland market. So late in the JK lifecycle I doubt we will see it come into production but with both the new Wrangler and new Defender slated for a 2016 release it seems Jeep have made their intentions toward any challenge from a new utility Land Rover sold on US shores clear.
I'm still holding out for something worthy from LR. Time will tell.
Let the sport commence!
Quote from: Matt H on April 08, 2015, 11:39 PM
80 Series LC, Mitsubishi Pajero or Isuzu Trooper
An 80 series is too big, heavy and weakly built. The Paj and the Trooper are IFS and soft roaders. I've a lot of experience with all three in Australia and they are not in the same ballpark as real off roaders.
A JK is well built with multilink live axles, great gearing and good stock strength. They only let down in cargo area, which this concept solves. Our more or less stock JK Rubicon on 35s could go anywhere my 90 could go on 34s.
Quote from: Matt H on April 08, 2015, 11:39 PM
I bet an original late 80's-90's era TDI Disco 1, Nissan Patrol, 80 Series LC, Mitsubishi Pajero or Isuzu Trooper could all run rings around that concept in all areas save factory warranty and bolt on modifications. Jeep are very late to this particular party.
However, It's interesting to see Jeep acknowledging the mainstream overland market. So late in the JK lifecycle I doubt we will see it come into production but with both the new Wrangler and new Defender slated for a 2016 release it seems Jeep have made their intentions toward any challenge from a new utility Land Rover sold on US shores clear.
I'm still holding out for something worthy from LR. Time will tell.
Let the sport commence!
I certainly wouldn't rate any of the vehicles you mention as at all on par. Just using a full size stock Rubicon JK as an example, it will easily out perform all of those vehicle offroad...it really isn't even a fair comparison imo. Interestingly enough, the full sized JK's actually have a decent amount of cargo space, in the same neighborhood as a D1 at least. But the concept vehicle of course addresses that issue, as well as introduces a deisel.
I think the fact that they are dropping an overlanding body on the best offroading platform offered today is the real beauty of the concept because you've got proven, rock solid off road ability at the base of the project.
You do make a good point on whether or not this will ever see the light of day as a production vehicle. The concepy cars, after all, rarely do. As you note the timing is interesting, and the social media response for this one vehicle has been significant, and very positive. We can only hope.
I'm not brand loyal. I genuinely don't care anymore what tag is on the vehicle. I care what I am getting, and that it meets my needs/desires. Whether that be Jeep, LR, Toyota, etc doesn't hold as much weight as loyalty back from these companies is a fleeting thing. Mind you, if there was a company that I would say actually ties in well to its customer base, it would be Jeep. LR actually does this moderately well also. But we are not the customers they are targeting, so we don't see as much of it.
The real edge the JK has on any of those units I mentioned is the fact they are in current production not already 20 years old. That one fact alone is probably enough win most fire side discussions but the JKU is not without its shortcomings.
Epic weight has always been the major problem with the JKU platform. It makes the vehicle slow, thirsty and hard on suspension parts and brakes. Well known bending the Dana 44 axle tubes under sometimes even moderate use, bolting on a perminently mounted hard top and loading it up for expeditions may require a little more engineering than a roof, a couple of cool looking jerry cans (I did like those) and a flat sand paint job. Nobody makes a light enough Diesel engine that has the jam to move a loaded up, modded JKU.
The JKU has always needed a either a serious diet or a V8 and Dana 60 axles like AEV build.
Despite the fact that offering a bigger, wider, four door Wrangler was a brilliant idea I always liked the TJ better as a off roader.
My 2c
Have you spent any time in a JK, Matt?
IMO, after having one for a couple of years and off roading it side by side with the 90, you are off base. The power from the old V6 was more than enough and this was running 35s and stock gearing. Way, way, way more than any Defender has ever seen. They are not any heavier than a Defender. Even mileage was not that bad. On the highway, at the same speed, it was only 20% worse than the Defender with the TDI, certainly better than any Rover V8. And that was the old engine. The current one is better on power and economy. A nice 3 liter V6 diesel would give more than adequate power.
There are some shortcomings versus the Defender, but let's face it, the replacement Defender is just going to be a piece of shit rebodied Discovery.
I've had some seat time in JKU when they first hit the scene in 07. I wheeled often with the Grizley Trails club out of Calgary in those days because some guys I worked with were members. The JK owner was trying to convince me how much better his new Jeep was. I didn't like it very much but I could tell right away it was going to be a hit. I've also got first hand info from Dave about life with a JKU.
But I'm comparing the JKUnlimited, four door unit. Not the two door JK. They both had the shitty minivan V6 back then that wasn't powerful enough to get out its own way and burned oil almost as fast as they burned gas.....just ask Dave.
None of the older SUV models were blessed with an abundance of power but they were all able to be overloaded with gear, tough, diesel powered, got acceptable MPG, comfortable and simple. All + when heading out into the middle of nowhere.
Don't get me wrong, if the JK had been a LR product I'd be the first to claim how great it is and how it has saved LR from being a status symbol. And I hope LR follow Jeeps example and get back to making utility 4wd's.
Yes, I realize this is a double standard. But so is comparing a 2007 Jk design to a 1983 110 design that was itself just a coil spring susension glued onto a 1958 design. Any Jeep v LR debate needs to end in the mid 80's because after that Land Rover stopped designing utility models.
In my eyes the current Land Rover brand will either live or die by whatever it rolls out as the new Defender. If it sucks, I won't care too much because I like the old Series units best anyway. If it's great then it will be nice to see Jeep finally have a contender for the crown.
Before you ask, yes......I always look at old rusty Rovers with my rose tinted glasses on.
Thinking about it, in what way (other than image) is the concept JK Africa better than a Euro spec Disco 4 with the V6 turbo diesel?
Quote from: Matt H on April 09, 2015, 02:06 PM
But I'm comparing the JKUnlimited, four door unit. Not the two door JK. They both had the shitty minivan V6 back then that wasn't powerful enough to get out its own way and burned oil almost as fast as they burned gas.....just ask Dave.
There is something wrong with Dave's JK. Seriously. Ours was a 2007 and had the early engine. 100 mph no problem, on 35s. 12 l/100 km (24 mpg) on the highway all day long. Never used a drop of oil. It was a really nice engine, with tons of power on tap. Fantastic off road on bone stock suspension. Huge gearing range. TC as good as anything, disconnecting sway bar, diff locks front and rear. Never put a dime into it other than changing the oil.
You drive around in a truck that maybe has 100 hp and rave about it one day and then tell us one with 200 hp is underpowered..... Brand blindness.
Quote from: Matt H on April 09, 2015, 02:31 PM
Thinking about it, in what way (other than image) is the concept JK Africa better than a Euro spec Disco 4 with the V6 turbo diesel?
You mean other than an LR4 is only good for light off roading?
Quote from: Matt H on April 09, 2015, 02:31 PM
Thinking about it, in what way (other than image) is the concept JK Africa better than a Euro spec Disco 4 with the V6 turbo diesel?
They differ in a lot of areas, but would be similar in a few...
Disco 4: Primarily an on-road luxury SUV built for an upscale market. Light offroad aplicability and definitely need to stay clear of moderate to difficult terrain, very limited after market support. Excellent touring vehicle for highway and light off road environments with good range and excellent comfort. Good cargo space. Good hauling capabilities (for an SUV). Minimal ability to repair on the trail.
Jeep Africa Concept: Pretty much what the Defender should have evolved into. Dedicated offroader capable of tackling serious offroad conditions right out of the factory, very large aftermarket support network, Good cargo space, hauling capabilites unknown (would be "ok" at worst I think). True overlanding vehicle not limited to the safe tracks. Good range. Utilitarian, not luxurious. Good ability to repair on the trail.
One thing I would add is that I have the fortune of wheeling with a range of vehicles down in Moab every year. They all have their pro's and con's, I've yet to see that ultimate rig, regardless of brand. But it has also shown me that there are a lot of things being done out there by companies like Jeep that are leaving companies like Land Rover in the dust. I would love to see LR take up the challenge. But if they decide they don't want to be in that market any longer I am more than willing to cheer on and support the companies that do want to be in it.
You drive around in a truck that maybe has 100 hp and rave about it one day and then tell us one with 200 hp is underpowered..... Brand blindness.
[/quote]
My Disco is 18 years old and cost me $900. I get about 30-32mpg. I don't expect to get modern performance out of it. Had I paid what a JKR cost, I'd expect more.
Quote from: Trevor on April 09, 2015, 03:31 PM
Quote from: Matt H on April 09, 2015, 02:31 PM
Thinking about it, in what way (other than image) is the concept JK Africa better than a Euro spec Disco 4 with the V6 turbo diesel?
They differ in a lot of areas, but would be similar in a few...
Disco 4: Primarily an on-road luxury SUV built for an upscale market. Light offroad aplicability and definitely need to stay clear of moderate to difficult terrain, very limited after market support. Excellent touring vehicle for highway and light off road environments with good range and excellent comfort. Good cargo space. Good hauling capabilities (for an SUV). Minimal ability to repair on the trail.
Jeep Africa Concept: Pretty much what the Defender should have evolved into. Dedicated offroader capable of tackling serious offroad conditions right out of the factory, very large aftermarket support network, Good cargo space, hauling capabilites unknown (would be "ok" at worst I think). True overlanding vehicle not limited to the safe tracks. Good range. Utilitarian, not luxurious. Good ability to repair on the trail.
One thing I would add is that I have the fortune of wheeling with a range of vehicles down in Moab every year. They all have their pro's and con's, I've yet to see that ultimate rig, regardless of brand. But it has also shown me that there are a lot of things being done out there by companies like Jeep that are leaving companies like Land Rover in the dust. I would love to see LR take up the challenge. But if they decide they don't want to be in that market any longer I am more than willing to cheer on and support the companies that do want to be in it.
I will concede the JK has more bolt on stuff available. I wouldn't want to be stuck anywhere remote with any modern vehicle. To be sold in NA any vehicle requires a dazzling array of complex crap to keep the Feds happy. But as for claims of being better off road ? Well I'm not so sure about that.....not stock for stock. Plenty of guys use the D3-4 platform for over landing. That concept is pretty stock save the export military diesel, jerry cans and fixed roof.
Understand I'm not blind to the assets of the Wrangler. It's a good unit and I know only too well the many shortcommings Land Rovers have. I've owned most models at one time or other. I just prefer old Land Rovers. Perhaps it's because everyone and his dog has one but I find modern Jeeps a little soulless and hardly the last word in off road.
I don't expect anyone to agree with me this is just my own opinion, you guys are welcome to yours.
Quote from: Matt H on April 09, 2015, 04:28 PMMy Disco is 18 years old and cost me $900. I get about 30-32mpg. I don't expect to get modern performance out of it. Had I paid what a JKR cost, I'd expect more.
So 115 hp is okay for 18 year old trucks, but if it is new 285 hp is underpowered? Did something happen in that time that requires three times more power?
I'm sorry but you are just wrong about the JK. I've owned one and wheeled it. They are easy to work on and have more than adequate power. They are nice as trail vehicles. Really nicely designed to be worked on. The price comparison is silly. Any year Wrangler is cheaper than the same year disco or defender by far.
A stock wrangler blows the doors off an LR4 off road. It is crazy to say otherwise and if anyone wants to destroy their LR4 I would be happy to prove it any day.
When we were getting rid of one of the trucks, it was a pretty close call to not sell the 90. If I had it cleaned up, so it would fetch good money, it might have been the one to go.
Quote from: Matt H on April 09, 2015, 04:50 PM
Understand I'm not blind to the assets of the Wrangler. It's a good unit and I know only too well the many shortcommings Land Rovers have. I've owned most models at one time or other. I just prefer old Land Rovers. Perhaps it's because everyone and his dog has one but I find modern Jeeps a little soulless and hardly the last word in off road.
I don't expect anyone to agree with me this is just my own opinion, you guys are welcome to yours.
Yep, I hear you Matt, and don't really disagree about the old Landies. A lot of soul in those vehicles, big part of the reason we own em :).
For me this isn't at all about which is a better or worse vehicle. I'm just glad somebody is picking up the overlanding torch that LR appears to be dropping. I want to wheel and be out there enjoying things, and hopefully there will be manufacturers that keep building vehicles for that.
The point of this thread is being missed. The next generation Wrangler with a real diesel engine (not the baby things you get in a Defender) and an aluminum body is what Land Rover should be building as the Defender replacement. One of the downsides of the current Wrangler versus the CURRENT Defender is the smaller load space in the long wheelbase versions and this concept addresses that downfall. All of the other aspects of the current models are close enough that you can argue either way.
Quote from: Red90 on April 09, 2015, 06:52 PM
The point of this thread is being missed. The next generation Wrangler with a real diesel engine (not the baby things you get in a Defender) and an aluminum body is what Land Rover should be building as the Defender replacement. One of the downsides of the current Wrangler versus the CURRENT Defender is the smaller load space in the long wheelbase versions and this concept addresses that downfall. All of the other aspects of the current models are close enough that you can argue either way.
That's pretty much a spot on summary John!
Quote from: Red90 on April 09, 2015, 05:46 PM
Quote from: Matt H on April 09, 2015, 04:28 PMMy Disco is 18 years old and cost me $900. I get about 30-32mpg. I don't expect to get modern performance out of it. Had I paid what a JKR cost, I'd expect more.
So 115 hp is okay for 18 year old trucks, but if it is new 285 hp is underpowered? Did something happen in that time that requires three times more power?
I'm sorry but you are just wrong about the JK. I've owned one and wheeled it. They are easy to work on and have more than adequate power. They are nice as trail vehicles. Really nicely designed to be worked on. The price comparison is silly. Any year Wrangler is cheaper than the same year disco or defender by far.
A stock wrangler blows the doors off an LR4 off road. It is crazy to say otherwise and if anyone wants to destroy their LR4 I would be happy to prove it any day.
When we were getting rid of one of the trucks, it was a pretty close call to not sell the 90. If I had it cleaned up, so it would fetch good money, it might have been the one to go.
IIRC John your jeep is the two door unit with a manual gearbox? I'm purely comparing the stock four door units in general and the Africa concept in particular. I've driven both two and four door Wranglers and the difference is dramatic, especially if the two door has just the rag top.
Why do modern vehicles need so much more power and why don't they get very good mpg? What has changed is the vehicle weight. A stock DI tips the scales at just under 4500lbs. A stock four door JK is 1000lbs heavier. That's like carrying three really fat mates everywhere you go!! Now add the perminent hard top, winch bumper and winch, cool jerry cans, roof rack, steel wheels and before you even throw in a bag of chips your vehicle curb weight has ballooned significantly.
Opinions on D3-4 off road worthiness is subjective. From my own unit I can confidently say that where vehicle weight is not the one deciding factor (the LR3 is also a fatty at 5500lbs) it is supprisingly good once you understand how to drive it.
I would rate your 90 as being as one of the most comprehensively set up units I've ever come across on this side of the pond. Lots of nicely thought out mods. I would expect to get quite a good sum from somebody that knows what he's looking at.
Quote from: Red90 on April 09, 2015, 06:52 PM
The point of this thread is being missed. The next generation Wrangler with a real diesel engine (not the baby things you get in a Defender) and an aluminum body is what Land Rover should be building as the Defender replacement.
Land Rover have always built an aluminium bodied diesel Defender??
Given the effort taken to use aluminium and diesel power trains with other models it would be a stretch to think that after all these years they would go any other way with any Defender replacement.
For me the point is Jeep (at least as far as the wrangler is concerned, many forget about the rest of the tat they also build) would seem to be more in tune with the 'outdoorsman' customer. Showing concepts of vehicles we may want to buy.
I wish LR would give the same effort.....but they are probably at the golf masters in Augusta right now pedalling immaculate $150K Range Rovers. Sigh.
I will never give up hope LR will come through with a great unit one day but then again I'm English and after a lifetime of cheering the national football team on only to be rewarded with embassingly poor performances I'm used to supporting a cause that yields nothing but past glory and constant disappointment.
Good one Matt ;D I'm enjoying this friendly bit of banter
Quote from: Matt H on April 09, 2015, 07:30 PM
Land Rover have always built an aluminium bodied diesel Defender??
Given the effort taken to use aluminium and diesel power trains with other models it would be a stretch to think that after all these years they would go any other way with any Defender replacement.
They will build a re-bodied Discovery 5. Independent suspension with unibody on a sub frame. It will have a diesel and aluminum skin, probably even an aluminum sub frame, with a better body for off road than the Discovery. The loss of the body on frame and live axles kills it for hard off roading as well as real expedition use, IMO...
Jeep has already made it clear they are sticking with body on frame and multilink coil live axles. This is the right way to go, but the designers at Land Rover would not know a hard off road trail if it ran over them. The engineers at Jeep not only know a hard trail, they market the trucks for that use.
I would not be surprised if Jeep do off this body style. It would sell well to the soccer moms. After they eat half the depreciation, there will be tons of them around to pickup.
Interesting. I hadn't heard it confirmed that IFS and IRS was going to be used? I did read the styling had been signed off on and the aluminium body on chassis design of the new RR and RRS was being used, but that's a good thing as it is super light for its size and really stiff.
Quote from: Matt H on April 09, 2015, 07:09 PM
IIRC John your jeep is the two door unit with a manual gearbox? I'm purely comparing the stock four door units in general and the Africa concept in particular. I've driven both two and four door Wranglers and the difference is dramatic, especially if the two door has just the rag top.
I would rate your 90 as being as one of the most comprehensively set up units I've ever come across on this side of the pond. Lots of nicely thought out mods. I would expect to get quite a good sum from somebody that knows what he's looking at.
My 90 is 5500 lbs empty.... I could only dream of these 4500 pound trucks. D2 and LR3s are over 6000 easy. Time to take yours to a scale.
Of course my wife's Jeep was a manual and a short wheelbase. Only girlymen would buy an auto. 4 doors are for soccer moms. ;)
I think you are tainted by Dave's horrible experience. He must have had a lemon. Our truck had tons of power, used no oil, was fuel efficient and was dead reliable. It was faster than most cars on the road. I never weighed it, but I doubt it was more than the 90. The hard top is maybe 50 pounds total, so that is no excuse. Sure a LWB is a bit slower off the line, but no different to comparing a 110 to a 90 and they still sell those with a 122 hp engine.
If you removed the Saturn V rocket sized heater and 10" of insulation the 90 would probably be lighter lol. My Rangie started life at 4400lbs but is way more than that now and I still have a rear bumper and tire carrier to build. My next project (white elephant) is going to be as lightweight as possible.
I got the curb weights from the Jeep website and my DI owners manual.
Quote from: Matt H on April 09, 2015, 09:11 PM
I got the curb weights from the Jeep website and my DI owners manual.
Land Rover has a magic scale at heir factory. I've never found a truck within 500 lbs of their numbers.
Quote from: Red90 on April 09, 2015, 08:47 PM
Of course my wife's Jeep was a manual and a short wheelbase. Only girlymen would buy an auto. 4 doors are for soccer moms. ;)
<-------- Girlyman, and proud of it ;D
I'll be first in line to take an auto over a standard any day!
Quote from: Red90 on April 09, 2015, 10:13 PM
Quote from: Matt H on April 09, 2015, 09:11 PM
I got the curb weights from the Jeep website and my DI owners manual.
Land Rover has a magic scale at heir factory. I've never found a truck within 500 lbs of their numbers.
The DI was actually 4465lbs. I rounded up so you could sneak in 35lbs worth of white rimed sunglasses, skull themed hoodies and Monster Energy/Metal Mulisha stickers that are apparently mandatory for anyone driving a JK.
And the Defender manual says mine is 3770 lbs..... There is no way in hell it could ever weigh that little.
Probably did weigh that back in 1980's when your 90 was delivered to the Army. I weighed a lot less in those Army days too lol.
Quote from: Matt H on April 09, 2015, 07:09 PM
A stock DI tips the scales at just under 4500lbs. A stock four door JK is 1000lbs heavier.
http://chryslermedia.iconicweb.com/mediasite/specs/2015_JP_Wrangler_Unltd_SPchdg022aq6le4f47b35q05lm6t.pdf
QuoteCURB WEIGHT
Wrangler Sport, Manual Transmission (lbs./kg) 4,075 (1848)
Wrangler Sport, Automatic Transmission (lbs./kg) 4,100 (1860)
Wrangler Sahara, Manual Transmission (lbs./kg) 4,269 (1936)
Wrangler Sahara, Automatic Transmission (lbs./kg) 4,294 (1948)
Wrangler Rubicon, Manual Transmission (lbs./kg) 4,315 (1957)
Wrangler Rubicon, Automatic Transmission (lbs./kg) 4,340 (1969)
and 2 door around 200 to 300 pounds lighter.
QuoteCURB WEIGHT
Wrangler Sport, Manual Transmission (lbs./kg) 3,760 (1403)
Wrangler Sport, Automatic Transmission (lbs./kg) 3,785 (1413)
Wrangler Sahara, Manual Transmission (lbs./kg) 3,951 (1475)
Wrangler Sahara, Automatic Transmission (lbs./kg) 3,976 (1484)
Wrangler Rubicon, Manual Transmission (lbs./kg) 4,104 (1532)
Wrangler Rubicon, Automatic Transmission (lbs./kg) 4,129 (1541)
Quote from: Matt H on April 10, 2015, 11:44 AM
Probably did weigh that back in 1980's when your 90 was delivered to the Army. I weighed a lot less in those Army days too lol.
That would be magical indeed as my truck was built in the 90s. :)
Quote from: Red90 on April 10, 2015, 11:45 AM
Quote from: Matt H on April 09, 2015, 07:09 PM
A stock DI tips the scales at just under 4500lbs. A stock four door JK is 1000lbs heavier.
http://chryslermedia.iconicweb.com/mediasite/specs/2015_JP_Wrangler_Unltd_SPchdg022aq6le4f47b35q05lm6t.pdf
QuoteCURB WEIGHT
Wrangler Sport, Manual Transmission (lbs./kg) 4,075 (1848)
Wrangler Sport, Automatic Transmission (lbs./kg) 4,100 (1860)
Wrangler Sahara, Manual Transmission (lbs./kg) 4,269 (1936)
Wrangler Sahara, Automatic Transmission (lbs./kg) 4,294 (1948)
Wrangler Rubicon, Manual Transmission (lbs./kg) 4,315 (1957)
Wrangler Rubicon, Automatic Transmission (lbs./kg) 4,340 (1969)
and 2 door around 200 to 300 pounds lighter.
QuoteCURB WEIGHT
Wrangler Sport, Manual Transmission (lbs./kg) 3,760 (1403)
Wrangler Sport, Automatic Transmission (lbs./kg) 3,785 (1413)
Wrangler Sahara, Manual Transmission (lbs./kg) 3,951 (1475)
Wrangler Sahara, Automatic Transmission (lbs./kg) 3,976 (1484)
Wrangler Rubicon, Manual Transmission (lbs./kg) 4,104 (1532)
Wrangler Rubicon, Automatic Transmission (lbs./kg) 4,129 (1541)
I think you will find those figures are for the base models. Or are you saying Jeep are also way off on their published curb weights?
Quote from: Matt H on April 10, 2015, 12:21 PM
I think you will find those figures are for the base models. Or are you saying Jeep are also way off on their published curb weights?
??? I linked the source, which is the official specification for all trim levels of the Wrangler, straight from Chrysler. You stated they were 5500 pounds, which is not the case. It also shows the difference in 4 door and 2 door is not very much.
Quote from: Matt H on April 09, 2015, 11:09 PM
The DI was actually 4465lbs. I rounded up so you could sneak in 35lbs worth of white rimed sunglasses, skull themed hoodies and Monster Energy/Metal Mulisha stickers that are apparently mandatory for anyone driving a JK.
Your right John. Looking back I see where I was mistaken. The spec I refenced is gross vehicle weight. Not curb weight. Need my reading glasses on when I search for info on my phone.
So there you have it. Turns out 4 door JK's are lighter than older SUV's with less than half the power. In that case I have no idea why they bend axles and feel slow and underpowered?
I think I will weigh the DI. I'm curious now. I should also weigh the Rangie although I'm not sure I want to know.
Go to your local Jeep dealer and take a new 4 door Rubicon out for a test drive. All I can say is you have driven only broken trucks. Like I say, ours was faster than most cars on the road easily and the current engine has a lot more power than that one.
I wasn't being funny. With that sort of power to weight ratio by rights the JK's should be rocket ships and be fairly indestructible. Perhaps I'll go take a new unit with that penistar V6 for a spin.
I only ever drive broken things. It's my job but it does leave you a little jaded when you see all the problems various vehicles have.
Quote from: Matt H on April 10, 2015, 12:56 PM
I think I will weigh the DI. I'm curious now. I should also weigh the Rangie although I'm not sure I want to know.
I've been meaning to do the same with my Disco after the array of changes I've done to it, and this thread has got me re-motivated to get that done. A year or so ago I was looking through my owners manual and it was telling me (I think) 5500lbs wet...which seems a lot lighter than it feels when I'm trying to haul it up over a ledge (or it gets it in its mind that its going to go DOWN one!).
Will post here what I find out.
Quote from: Red90 on April 09, 2015, 08:47 PMMy 90 is 5500 lbs empty...
I guess I was exageratting a bit. Just looking through my notes and I did write it down one day...
2008/5/10 "Weighed 2270 kg (5000 lb) loaded for weekend, 3/4 tank, Adam and John. 1120 Fr, 1140 Rr"
So, I don't know, maybe as low as 4500 pounds with no gear. No idea how Land Rover got that down to 3770 pounds in a hard top. I can't have 700 pounds of extra stuff on the truck.
Just for sake of it I'm also going to weigh the 88" when its ready for its parade day. I'm running it topless with just the front seats in and a spare on the bonnet. Should be about as light as a stock Series III can get.
My Lightweight: "3800 lbs with both tanks full, my regular gear for a day trip and myself." Should be around 3400 pounds as a curb weight basis.
Just got back from test driving a brand new four door wrangler rubicon.........yeah, still crap.
#1 gripe, you can't see out.
It's too wide.
Despite the not insignificant price tag it feels cheap. Crappy materials throughout.
The low range T'case gearing is too low. Perhaps if you swap 35" tyres that would feel better?
Gearbox ratio's had a big gap between 4th and 5th.
I had a drive in a hard top and it was still very noisy.
Hard to believe it only supposed to wiegh a tad over 4,000lbs? Even with all that extra power the engine is working hard and the entire package feels heavy.
The back door and spare tyre arrangement is ridiculous.
Must have passed twenty other JK's on my 10 min test drive.
Sorry guys. I will stick to my Land Rovers.
Quote from: Matt H on April 11, 2015, 11:45 AM
Sorry guys. I will stick to my Land Rovers.
No worries.
When you find something from LR that's as capable, new, and in the same price point, let me know. I would love to take it for a test drive. :)
Forgot to say during the test drive there was a lot of vibration. Turning circle was not very good and that effected maneuverability. It was very pricey too. But the biggest drawback was the lack of vision out of the small windows.
I also felt an overwhelming urge to wear a ball cap backwards and chug down a couple of $5 energy drinks ;D
The grass isn't always greener on the other side.
In all fairness though it wasn't all that bad....just not THAT good. And again, had the JK been a Land Rover product I would probably cut it more slack. I'm harsh on new cars because I expect a lot and I'm extra critical on 4wd's that claim greatness. I still think the TJ was better.
The challenge with the jeeps is the electronics. Rented a Grand Cherokee and drove it to Peace River. Hit a pot hole and the whole dashboard went black. Parked it. Shut it down. Five minte later, back to normal. Car had less than 600 km on it.
Yesterday, there was a great gathering of Jeeps in Sherwood Park by Timmy. Great looking trucks. Well tricked up with big tires, winches and the toys. My friend indicated his buddy have replaced the centre console three times under warranty so far.
With so many hands in the pot and outsourcing savings, the continuity and integrity of the design got compromised.
Comparing that to my old 1980 AMC Two door hatchback, which I loaded to the roof with news papers everyday and a straight line six cylinder, that car did a 150 km trip every day delivering news papers for good six month before I sold it and moved to Edmonton.
Hopefully, my current Defender will keep going until I stop driving ;-)