Cooling System Upgrade

[dylanh19]

Hey guys,
Firstly, if there is already a topic on this then I apologize. I am inexperienced and looking for advice and insight. My first spring project will be to tackle my cooling system and intercooler. I have a Defender 200tdi, CSW 110, and the heat and hills of the Okanagan last summer were really cooking my engine hotter than I've experienced in the past. For example: driving some of the longer hills, including the Coquihalla, loaded with camping gear and roof tent I'm hitting 60km/h if I'm lucky, with the turbo spinning the entire time, and the temperature sitting high. I know the 200tdis are slow and underpowered, but does this sound normal?

My current setup is stock, running a viscous fan and the stock intercooler/radiator split. The turbo has been rebuilt recently by a turbo shop, and pulls well around town.
My plan/idea is as follows:

1. Replace the viscous fan with an electric fan. I've been looking at the Revotec ones from Britpart. They appear to be a bolt on item. Does anyone have experience with these? Would it be worthwhile getting a cheaper universal fan kit from ebay?

2. Replace the current radiator with a full frame rad from a 2.5 NA diesel w/oil cooler, I'm hoping this will be an easy fit and require minimal adjusting, as well as give an increased surface area. any thoughts? My concern is whether the core width of the new rad is adequate enough compared to the original radiator to warrant the switch, or whether the hopefully increased surface area will even be worth it. My other thought was to find a radiator online or from a pick'n pull and retrofit that.

3. Replacing the current intercooler with a front mounted full length intercooler. I have room between the grill and the rad at the moment as I removed my A/C system last fall. I don't want to go with an expensive AliSport one, so I've been looking at Universal kits on ebay, or again, considering finding something from a pick'n pull.

I'm looking for any suggestions or experience on any of these ideas. I am currently on a student budget, and fairly new to Land Rovers so please be gentle haha.
Any help is much appreciated fellas,
Ben

[Red90]

If you are having cooling issue, there is something wrong with the cooling system.  I run through the mountains towing a trailer in the summer and it is hard to even get the fan to turn on (unless off road).  Once the fan starts to run, nothing can make the temperature increase.  You probably are best to look into what is not working properly.

To the specific points.

1.  An electric fan will not do better than the engine driven fan.  Is your working?  That is a likely cause of the problems.  If you go electric, then those options are not the best and we could talk options.

2. I don't think the 2.5 is an improvement in cooling capacity.  You could always do a custom rad, but unless you are running a big turbo with supporting mods, the stock radiator is more than adequate.

3.  That won't help.

Step 1.  Confirm or deny the viscous unit is working.  It probably is not.
- If that is okay, then look at the rad and see if it is clean.
- Check the water pump.
- Make sure you have the correct thermostat that includes a bypass valve.

Now, I'm working under the assumption the truck has a stock and complete Defender 200TDI installation.  If it is not, if it is a custom install of some sort, then you would want to look at the details of the install.

On the power question.  What is your top speed?  What is your 0-60 mph time?  That gives something to benchmark against.  Do you have a boost gauge?  Do you have an EGT gauge?

[binch]

Just ran the coq twice this weekend and my temps on the stock 200 system were fine.    But I do have to gear down to forth on the long hills as I'm seeing my pyrometer sneaking up to 1300F, which is my que to back of the throttle just a bit lest I cook something in the head.     So what I was finding was that as I climbed the long hill my turbo will pull but heat up if I try to keep the speed.    But eventually the spead starts to back down a bit.....when I get around 70k/hr I dropped back down into 4th gear and back off on the throttle.  At this point I can quite happily pull up the long hill at 75km/hour.    I had about 600lbs of extra weight in the 110 on that trip.

I lost my viscous coupling on my way up the really big hill from Bella Coola two years ago and my temps started to climb into the red as I wasn't getting enough air through the rad.    The two options were....   1.   Take a lot of breaks on the climb out  OR  2.  Drive like a mad man and keep the air going through the rad.   Let's just say that Craig and I got up that hill in record time ;-)    At the top of the hill that's where I found the viscous coupling was dead.   Emad brought a spare with him so I switched it out and was right as rain.

A bunch of years back I was having trouble with my gauge shooting up into the red without warning......turns out Red90 was right with the gauge being faulty.   He sent me up his old one and it's worked fine ever since.

[pechanec]

The viscous couplings on the 4.0L have failed without warning on me several times. Same symptoms- sudden temp spike

Sent from my XP7700 using Tapatalk

[dylanh19]

Thanks for the humbling and helpful responses guys. I was out last night checking on a few things and it appears that my viscous fan comes on for a minute or so after I cold start, but then stops. I went out for a few highway runs for 10 minutes each, no hills at around 0degrees C but couldn't get the fan to turn on. Should I have expected it to under these conditions? My temp gauge really hasn't climbed past the halfway mark since this summer going up the coq.

My temps never get into the red, but have climbed to about 2/3 to 3/4 on the temp gauge, which is startling considering I had never seen it go past the halfway point. But again, I have nothing to reference this to, so please feel free to educate me.

I replaced the thermostat a couple of months ago when I did a coolant flush. The thermostat is the correct one, with the bypass valve. The Radiator is clean and shows no signs of corrosion or rot in the fins. I don't have a lot of history on my truck or the 200tdi install unfortunately, but it has never given me any trouble in the time I have owned it. Also I have had it in at a couple of land rover shops that have told me everything looks fine, which makes me confident in the engine and its install. My top speed is roughly 100-110km/h on a flat with little to no headwind. 0-60 I am unsure, but painfully slow.

Does the water pump need to be removed in order to verify that its functioning?

Bill, my experiences are similar to the one you described on the big hill going up the Coq, except for the fact that I can get around 60-65km/h at most usually jumbing between 3rd and 4th, and even when I back off the throttle my turbo seems to continue to wine. It just seems like my turbo is always spooling as I climb these hills and I can't seem to get into a comfortable rmp/speed that doesn't have my temp gauge rising.

I don't have an EGT/pyrometer or Boost gauge yet, but I'll put that at the top of the list now. Any suggestions on a make/model?

I Appreciate the help and patience fellas,
Ben

[Red90]

On a TDI, the viscous unit will very rarely lockup on the road.  It is only when you are driving up those long steep mountain hills like the coq.  It would be hard to replicate around here.  Based on your description of it only happening on those hills, that is why I would suggest it is not locking up and is the problem.  It could also be the gauge, as they are not that reliable either, but I would doubt it.  A better gauge could not hurt, though, for safety sake.

100-110 is not encouraging.  I can do 140 and it takes almost twice the power to go from 110 to 140.  You do have the roof tent, which slows you down, but I would hope you could still manage at least into the 120s.  Most likely boost and fueling is down and you have a bunch of free unused power at your disposal.  One thing.  You talk about hearing the turbo a lot.  I would check and make sure there are no boost leaks anywhere.  The turbo noise should not be really noticeable.

As to gauges, the two options I would suggest.  VDO Vision can be done for everything including fuel and speedometer, if you like.  They are accurate and look great while looking correct in the Defender.  TD5 trucks all used VDO as stock.  Another option is the MadMan EMS 2 which puts 6 gauges into one unit with memory and alarms.  Really nice but needs a bit of mods to the dash.  They keep talking about making a unit that drops right in, but it has been delayed.

http://www.egauges.com/VDO-Vision-Black-Series-Gauges-s/21006.htm
https://www.madman.co.za/index.php/where-to-buy/buy-online/select-by-category/product/ems2-engine-monitor/category_pathway-26

If winter ever breaks and you want to chat about any of this in person, let me know.  Someone should really get a Calgary gathering organized...   ::)

[Red90]

Here is my estimate.....  Hopefully it makes sense.  The rising curved thick lines are the power needed at flat, 5% grade (hill WB out of Kamloops) and 8.5% grade (Coq summit EB).  Thin lines are estimated available power from a stock TDI using Land Rover figures.  Certainly the 8.5% grade, you would need to stay in 3rd and probably 70 km/h.  If you are backing off for temperature , it makes sense.  The flat performance is a bit confusing though.

Probably good to stop and see how heavy the truck has become as that is the big thing on hills.

[dylanh19]

Wow, thanks for that chart Red90, definitely puts things into perspective and I'm definitely experiencing a power loss. I wonder if the power loss and the heating (if a faulty gauge isn't the issue) are related at all.
As I explained, ~100km/h is what I was getting on a flat highway, but that is without the tent on the roof. I should also add that I have an ARB bull bar and am running 255/85 tires, but I can't imagine that would account for much loss. The fact that you can get up to 140 on flat gives me hope however when I do get this sorted
I've spent the last couple of days reading about tuning the 200tdi and inquiring into some of the shops around Kelowna. I just can't seem to find anywhere that knows old land rover engines.

I like the look of those VDO Gauges. I think I'll order some and after they're installed I'll start playing with the boost and fueling. I'll also have to have look at the turbo for leaks I suppose. Is it worth getting a compression test as well?

Ben

[Red90]

I would just get a new viscous unit right away and see if that fixes the overheat issue.  If you want to do the VDO coolant gauge at the same time, you want the 5/8" UNF sender.

As to power, it is probably just down on fuel and boost.  It can't hurt to do a compression check and definitively check for boost leaks.  Sometimes blowing with a shop vac into the turbo inlet will be enough to show them (set the engine 90 degrees past TDC to prevent air just going through the cylinders).

After you get an EGT and boost gauge installed, come back and we can walk through adjustments.  It is not too hard.  If you do want to find someone local, they just need experience with 1st generation Cummins 6BTs as they use the same injection pump.

[dylanh19]

So I had the 110 in to see the local "diesel whisperer" and he agrees that the truck is definitely down on power. After checking all of the obvious items he said the turbo was fine, there were no obstructions or leaks found, and the boost/assist pump is good. He told me that he is suspecting at this point that the injectors are poor with a globular spray pattern and likely not producing proper fine and consistent spray which is causing low boost.  He said if this is not the issue then it is likely a faulty pump.
This makes sense to me. Thoughts?

Is it possible that this issue is linked to my overheating issue because I'm running too lean?

He suggested to send the injectors off to be tested and rebuilt if necessary, but at 300$ ea. I figured it might be worth it to get new injectors and install them myself. Can anyone suggest the best way to get a set of quality 200tdi injectors and how much they cost?

[binch]

I have my injectors rebuilt by Breedon & Gell in Darlington, Durham Cty, UK.   The last set I had tested and rebuilt by them and it cost me total 300 quid for all four.   They also rebuild diesel injector pumps.   

BREEDON & GELL DIESEL FUEL INJECTION SERVICE
200, Back Haughton Road 
Darlington, County Durham
UK
DL1 2PH

Phone: 01325 381088

The are located in an old stable building converted to a shop, down a lane off a back alley, and hard as hell to find the first time.   But they are very good at what they do.  Plus they don't have an oil field price tag.

Are you an ALRE member?

I have a spare set of 200tdi injectors here that I had rebuilt by them.    I might be convinced to let you have them provided you give me your old ones and pay for their rebuild by B&G so I can replace my spare set.   

8) 

[Red90]

He told me that he is suspecting at this point that the injectors are poor with a globular spray pattern and likely not producing proper fine and consistent spray which is causing low boost.

Did he remove and spray test the injectors?  I ask, because your symptoms do not sound like a spray pattern issue.  Poor spray does nto usually affect peak power.  It affects idle and part throttle operation.  If you do want to get them rebuilt, talk to Bill.

Beyond avoiding the standard Canadian business massive overcharge, it is important that the rebuilder has the correct type of test bench and experience in setting the two stage injectors.

Is it possible that this issue is linked to my overheating issue because I'm running too lean?

No.  Less fuel will be cooler and more fuel hotter.