Alberta Land Rover Enthusiasts Club Forum
General => Technical Discussions => Topic started by: SpeedyJ on October 18, 2016, 11:17 AM
I would be great if someone could take a few measurements from their spare 25D distributor and compare them with the attached drawing for me. I'm ready to pull the trigger on the programmable 123Ignition Tune+ distributor (http://www.123ignition.nl/id/64.html) from the Netherlands but they simply list their unit as a 'Lucas Replacement', I'd like to be dead certain that it's the correct one before having it sent from Europe.
Any help is appreciated!
Cheers
While I don't have the distributor out of the car I can direct you to a Canadian source for 123 ignitions. http://www.tdcperformance.ca/ out of Winnipeg. I have inquired with them regarding the ignition for a non Land Rover application. They may be able to help you with your requirements.
Cheers
Ross
I tried him, but had a slow initial response to my inquiry (~week), when he replied to my first email I had a few more questions, I'm still waiting over a month later. I'm not really one to chase down a supplier that doesn't hold stock.
I still don't even know what his price is....
Hello.
I have one on the bench right now, will try to make the measurements today.
I had a 123 Tune in my Volvo before I pulled the engine and it was great. I would ask them what the curves are if you don't buy the programmable one. You don't want the stock curve. The one I have just came back from Advanced Distributors, where he performed his magic. This means - well - straightening the shaft, re-forming the lobes (much sharper, with a taper, like the 45D I think), bushing, some kind of an improved points-plate, and a custom curve. Not sure what else, except it is shiney....
The cost was about $US200 - a lot less than the 123 and I guess it was the cost difference which convinced me. Plus, he set the curve to my engine characteristics. Even if your engine is stock, you can get a great improvement with a re-curve. He said I will get 10 more mph and get there a lot faster. Your's would be the same. He has be doing this for decades, and comes highly recommended.
Anyway, if you do want to go with the 123, he says the static timing should be about 17 degrees BTDC and run up to 30 degrees by 3000 rpm. A stock engine will be less advance, but not sure how much; I assume you are pondering such details....
I'll be putting it in right-away and report back, along with the measurements, but a 25D is a 25D, so I'm pretty sure it will fit.
They are about $US500. I have called and spoken to the guy in the US several times and he answers the phone, is very good.
The problem was always something other than the distributor.
The manual for the programmable one leaves something to be desired, so it was good to be able to call him.
There is really nothing to be gained with changing the advance curve on a normally aspirated 2.25. You will gain nothing. The stock curve is quite aggressive and the engines do not care much about timing regardless.
This is the stock curve from the manual. The advance is set to max out at 42 degrees. This is a straightforward, two stage linear rise right to redline.
38° to 42°, 4500
30° to 34°, 3500
22° to 26°, 2500
12° to 16°, 1200
4° to 12°, 900
0° to 4°, 600
No advance below 450
For SpeedyJ's needs of retarding timing with boost, this programmable distributor is certainly a good choice.
Thanks!
The 123Distributor is simply described as a Lucas replacement, are the 45D and 25D interchangeable in terms of mechanical fit (i.e. not worried about advance curve)? If so, this would go a long way to answering my question.
I would just with electronic ignition on my existing 25D, or rebuild it, but I need the ability to tune it to accommodate for the turbo. The 123 is unique in it ability to run either positive or negative earth, this is important to me since I'm currently positive earth, but may upgrade the electrical in the future.
I can get it from the Netherlands for $500CAD including shipping, right there I'm saving ~$160 on the exchange rate. In the past few years, everything I've ordered from the US has been hit with customs, tax and duty, whereas shipments from Europe or a little more hit and miss, so I might get lucky. Shipping times from the UK have been comparable or better then shipping from the US as well (standard postage, not FedEx overnight or similar).
If you could take those measurements I'd appreciate the confirmation, I might even show up at the next YYC meeting (when are we going to have one anyway?) and buy you a beer.
Cheers
Jeff
Thanks for that John, that's from the Green Bible? I looked for those numbers, but apparently not hard enough.
Quote from: SpeedyJ on October 25, 2016, 10:40 AM
Thanks for that John, that's from the Green Bible? I looked for those numbers, but apparently not hard enough.
Yes, that is from the Series 3 workshop manual. If you don't have it, let me know, and I'll put it on the site. I've attached a screenshot of the page. I've also attached a spreadsheet with the same data, that I made up when planning for EDIS. It shows vacuum advance of 12 degrees and -60 kPa. I can't recall where I got the 12 degrees from, but it must have been somewhere.... Could probably use as a starting point for boost retard. In the spreadsheet, the top table was from someone else's Megajolt 2.25P install, but his page looks dead. My numbers are lower down and if you just use the linear vacuum advance curve, you can simply adjust the pressure numbers into the boost range to make a table for a boosted engine.
That's some good stuff! Thanks again, I appreciate it.
I have the Series II/IIA shop manual, so it should be in there somewhere, I just need to look.
Quote from: SpeedyJ on October 25, 2016, 11:30 AM
That's some good stuff! Thanks again, I appreciate it.
I have the Series II/IIA shop manual, so it should be in there somewhere, I just need to look.
The 2/2A manual does not have the info. The full chart is in the 3 manual and there is a smaller chart in the Defender manual.
Quote from: Red90 on October 25, 2016, 10:27 AM
...the engines do not care much about timing regardless.
I'll expand on why I believe this to be the case. When I got my Lightweight I found that the pin holding the secondary advance spring was broken. Basically this means the advance went at the primary rate straight to 42 degrees. So by say 2500 rpm, the full advance was there. There was no pinging. When I chucked in another distributor, there was no real difference in performance. This was a freshly built engine with a ported head and performance cam.
That explains why I haven't found it then.
Your theory of the 2.25 being tolerant of poor timing is consistent with what I've experienced - no noticeable changes associated with timing adjustments. That said though, I believe that I was suffering from pinging under load at moderate boost (2-3psi), I've addressed this issue by switching to a higher octane fuel (non ethanol when I can find it). The pinging is no longer audible, but of course that doesn't mean that it's completely taken care of.
Hi - The numbers match up, so it will fit, and yes, a 25D and 45D are inter-changeable mechanically. I believe the points plate is different.
You have a turbo on there! So you will be going with the programmable one. When you get it, I might be able to come over and help you get the program up and running. As I said, there are some slightly quirky features in the software, otherwise, don't hesitate to call John, who is the 123 distributor in the US. I have no idea how you will decide on what numbers are optimal, unless you use a dyno? FWIW, Jeff said max advance should be in the low 30's by about 3000rpm.
I can see what Red is saying about timing. Sheesh, if that is true, maybe I just wasted my money. Big debates about all kinds of things on the internet, like if electronic ignition is worth it. (... God, if I had a nickle for every person who still swears by points). That includes Jeff at Advanced Distributors, but I trusted his (and others') opinions on getting the ignition timing right, and its too late now. The whole engine seems to be under-designed/utilized (67hp??) so it made sense to me. I'll find out soon-enough if there is much difference on my somewhat souped-up 2.25na.
Jim
Awesome, thanks Jim! That gives me the confidence to pull the trigger.
I'll be getting the Bluetooth one for multiple reasons - programmable, engine immobilizer, programmable with my phone, it's the only model that works with positive earth, etc....
I won't be putting it on a dyno, this is more about being able to understand what is happening to my ignition system. Right now I literally have a homemade black box that I have very little control over. My baseline will be based on stock timing and turbo theory, honestly, with the levels of boost my turbo makes I expect the set up to be pretty forgiving. I'm already over fueled, so this is simply meant to be a project, not a full on obsession.
If I didn't have the turbo, I'd still go electronic ignition. I've had points break (the nylon rider broke) on me in LA and Houston traffic in the past, both instances were pretty scary. In Houston, it happened at the highest point of a substantial overpass on the interstate. By the end of that trip I was adjusting the points every second tank of fuel. And, yes I realize now that the likely culprit was a badly worn distributor, but still, it's let an impression upon me. Secondly, I have experience with hall effect sensors in some pretty demanding environments (seismic drills), as a result I have a fairly high level of trust with them.
Have you looked at Petronix? I have used them on Rover 2.25, cyl and 3.5, 3.9, 4.2 Rover V8's with excellent results. They are competitively priced, available everywhere and really reliable.
My 2c.
Had to laugh about John's comment on the 2.25 not really caring much about timing. So very true.
Quote from: Matt H on October 26, 2016, 04:16 PM
Have you looked at Petronix? I have used them on Rover 2.25, cyl and 3.5, 3.9, 4.2 Rover V8's with excellent results. They are competitively priced, available everywhere and really reliable.
My 2c.
The problem is that he needs boost retard for the turbo. A normal distributor does not have the ability.
I would use the vacuum advance rate for the boost retard which is around 1.3 degrees per psi. Maybe start at 1.5 or 2 to be safe. If you retard too much all that happens is you get a bit less power.
What are you running for plugs? You would expect a colder than stock plug would be best with the turbo.
Exactly.
Plugs? I don't recall off the top of my head. I just matched what was already in there, the PO was just flipping it, so he didn't know anything about it, but he did relay that he thought that the original owner's son had taken it to Baja and back (based on the last registration that was in '98 or so), so i figured that whatever was in there couldn't be all bad. It has a 7:1 head, but for all I know it could be have been skimmed at some point.
It is something to look at. There are a lot of good writeups around. Beyond plug damage, if the plug runs too hot, it will cause pre-ignition. The plug itself will cause ignition from its own heat. This would confuse the selection of timing. You would expect a colder plug to be needed with the turbo. The stock plugs usied in these engines are more or less the hottest ones available.
https://www.ngksparkplugs.com/about-ngk/tech-talk/spark-plug-basics
http://www.ngk.com.au/spark-plugs/technical-information/modified-performance-engines
The new 123Tune+ is ordered. Updates to follow (but probably not too quickly).
Thanks again for the resources John.
I finally retrieved my 123Tune + from Canada Post last night. It was four days from the Netherlands to Vancouver, six days from Vancouver to Calgary and another six days from the attempted delivery at my home to when it was actually available at my local Post Office for pickup.
It did get hit with 5% GST and 6% duty, I could have avoided the duty if I'd sourced it from the US (car parts are exempt under NAFTA), but overall I figure it was ~$80 cheaper from Europe.
My initial impression is that it seems to be very good quality with a nice finish, the included Beru distributor cap and rotor are on par with the equivalent Bosch components and superior to the Lucas ones I purchased a year ago.
Now I just need to find time to install and programme it.
Cool! Make sure you have a longish USB cable so you can put the laptop on the fender. Since this is a science experiment (turbo), the best thing would be to get a really long cable and eventually have someone tweaking while you drive.
If you have troubles with the software, I can help you get started.
They have quite a good forum on the website, you should be able to find some info there from peeps who have turbos.
Mine is set for 15+ degrees static, which I think would still apply with the turbo - my suggestion is to set it at zero on the flywheel and do it all on the 123Tune.
Thanks Jim,
The model I've gotten is the Tune+, so it's all Bluetooth. I was hoping that it would have a USB port for back up and PC programming, but for now it's all done via iOS app. I'm not crazy about being tied to a single ecosystem (Android is promised, but not yet available), but we're pretty heavily invested in Apple stuff, so it's actually the path of least resistance for me. If memory serves, this model was my only option for positive ground. I do plan on switching polarity at some point, but this will allow me to revert to my mysterious but working black box if need be.
John provided the factory 2.25 curve, so I'll probably start there and apply 1deg of retard per pound of boost.
It's looking like we might see a high of 9C over the weekend, so I might be able to get it physically installed then. After that I should be able to tune from the warmth of my house.;)
Hi - good luck, have fun and all that.
Another wireless gadget - so convenient, but so unfixable.
Update: I was able to get the 123 Ignition installed months ago, but Christmas, cold weather (unheated garage) family commitments and a month of work in Alaska got in the way of diagnosing my no start condition.
Today I finally had a few honest hours to troubleshoot. It turned out that I'd made a silly mistake and all is good so now. The 123 has a built in static timing light and when I'd set it up I'd rotated the distributor the wrong direction, leaving my timing ~45^ out. Once that was sorted out, she fired right up in spite of not being run in months.
My initial impressions is that it's smoother on start up (it was always lumpy when cold), is drivable sooner and is less prone to sputtering/bogging down when cold. At idle it is phenomenally smooth (when compared to it's former self). I won't take it for a proper test drive today, there's still too much salt on the roads for that, but at least I can move it around again.
Good to hear. After all the muckery with my dizzy (works fantastic now), I'm jealous. It must have cost a pile, but as you said, it makes a big difference.
I don't know anything about curves w. a turbo - glad that worked out.