Alberta Land Rover Enthusiasts Club Forum
Classifieds => Wanted => Topic started by: Amac_519 on March 26, 2016, 06:48 PM
Considering changing the motor on my '58 series rover. Currently have a 2.0 gas and wondering if anyone has another motor that i may be able to swap in. Let me know
If that is the original 2.0L IOE engine you may want to look into repairing it if possible. Only a few of the very earliest Series II's had the left over Series I 2.0L IOE engines before the 2.25L were fitted later in the model year.
Those that have managed to retain their original engines are now worth quite a bit more than a later unit or a modified unit.
Having said that, if you want a 2.25L Petrol or Diesel they do obviously fit.
My 2c.
Matt, aren't there issues with mating the earlier gearboxes to the later engines? I thought there was something different with the bell housing to the block or something like that ???
If you have a good reason for not wanting to keep the original engine, then the possibilities are endless. I went through this process a few months ago. Why are you wanting a new engine?
Jim
If it were me, I would overhaul the engine, if it needs it. An original 2.0 Series 2 is out there on the rarer end of the spectrum. You would be hurting its value to change to another engine. If it an original Canadian truck, it is even more rare.
I should get a picture for you guys. Its an old alberta road works rover from what i understand. The motor was siezed whrn i got it and i got it freed up with good compression across the cylinders but they are scarred and i cant keep oil pressure for more than 20min or so. I mainly just want to be able to drive the thing for now. I would keep the old motor and maybe fix it up
If compression is good, then maybe a set of bearings or the oil pump would fix the oil pressure issue without getting into a full overhaul.
What are you running for oil?
The engine is worth keeping I would think....overhaul and give it it a new lease on life ;)
A few of us have had our 2.25 and 2.5 engines rebuilt with Curtis Halvorson, at Extreme Engine Development, in Calgary. Curtis is able to do all machining in house, before rebuilding, so it becomes a one stop rebuild. Others on here may be able to recommend someone in Edmonton and ugly_90 can tell you one shop to avoid.
I pretty much run whatever i have around. I usually try for 20w50 though. Whrn im able to drive it it usually doesnt have a problem doing road speeds. I just want to be able to somewhat rely on it. But if nobody has anything i guess ill throw some coin at it. Ive read it could be the regulator. Who has experience with these motors?
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Quote from: camo388 on March 28, 2016, 12:19 PM
A few of us have had our 2.25 and 2.5 engines rebuilt with Curtis Halvorson, at Extreme Engine Development, in Calgary. Curtis is able to do all machining in house, before rebuilding, so it becomes a one stop rebuild. Others on here may be able to recommend someone in Edmonton and ugly_90 can tell you one shop to avoid.
Neat idea. Id be interested in the machining end of it if nothing else. How much would it be roughly? Or will i be best to just call them
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Quote from: binch on March 27, 2016, 01:41 AM
Matt, aren't there issues with mating the earlier gearboxes to the later engines? I thought there was something different with the bell housing to the block or something like that ???
Yes, the bell housing is different but it's just a bolt in swap for the 2.25 unit. IIRC there are only two types of bell housings used in older Land Rovers and one gearbox. The 1.6L, 2.0L & 2.6L all use the one type and the later 2.25L/2.5L use the other.
If it were me however I'd look for a later Series III 2.25L five bearing engine and matching synchromesh gearbox as these benefited from the most improvements.
Claus tells me Curtis has had enough of these engines.....
If it does "decent road speeds", it must be in fantastic shape as nobody has ever said that about any stock Series. It is strange that it loses oil pressure after a long period of time. If it were me, I would pull the sump and look at a bearing or two and pull the oil pump. if compression is good, why waste time and effort rebuilding?
They are stupid simple. Any engine shop would be fine for the little work needed that requires special tools. You do have to watch problems with the supply of parts though and make sure what you get is decent.
You could get a used 2.25 and gearbox and keep the old one as you suggest. It is a bit of a minefield in sourcing what are now 30+ year old used engines and hoping for a good result.
For sure. When the motor starts up ill have over 60psi i believe at idle and as it warms up it slowly goes down to nothing even at wode open. Im going to read thru the manual i have and see if i could maybe leave the motor in and check the bearing and pump. I have some spare parts for these motors on hand but all used and may be in the same condition
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Do you have the factory manuals? If not, I have them in PDF.
Ive got a print out of one of them. Id like to at least be able to check them from underneath before i pull the motor
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I'll stick them up on the server tonight. A quick scan of the manual shows the oil pressure relief valve is adjustable and removable from the side of the block. Probably pop the valve out, clean and adjust first. Pump comes out with the sump pan off. Looks like every other oil pump.
Thats what ive seen. Pretty hard to get at. May have to take my starter off again. I have a few spare gears for the pump but i dont know if they would be better or not
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So i took the regulator out and it looks fine i guess. Not really sure what to look for but nothing was chipped or worn out looking
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Sounds like classic pump failier to me. All engine oil pumps have a certain amount of slip, that is internal leakage, that is used for lubrication of the pump itself. As the pump wears this internal leakage gets worse until it can no longer provide the pressure needed. This shows up in testing by starting with good oil pressure (especially at low rpm) when cold with worsening pressure as the engine warms up.
With thick, cold oil at low rpm the pump can keep up with the engines requirements but as the oil warms up and rpm increase too much slippage occurs and the pressure drops off.
Also check for restrictions at the pump inlet. Sometimes they get gunked up and will allow sufficient flow at low rpm but not high rpm.
Either way it's worth doing as Red90 suggests and pull the oil sump to take a look. Worn pumps will show signs of obvious wear on the pressure side.
My 2c.
If it were a pressure regulator issue you would likely never see full system pressure at any temperature or rpm.
I put the regulator back in and played with it and it didnt seem to change anything whether it was cranked in or backed right off. Ill see if i can drop the pan and check the pump. Ive got a pretty mean tap too. Maybe a piston hitting a valve. who knows
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Without full pressure lubrication knocks and taps are to be expected. It's not good but it's also not the end of the world. These are tough old engines and will soldier on with some pretty serious wear.
If it turns out to be the pump before renewing it I would take the big end bearings off and the crankshaft main bearings inspect the crank and bearings. These areas see the force in an engine and suffer the quickest from a low oil pressure situation.
And ill need to pull the motor for that right? Ill let it sit for a while again as its in a puddle right now and kind of annoying to work on.
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It's easier on a engine stand obviously but you can do it on the vehicle if need be. With a couple of bearings caps off you can inspect the bearings and rotate Crank and check for problems. After all you are just looking for where or what the problem is right now so you can decide what you should do about it.
However, the situation is that if you drive it with low oil pressure you risk burning up the engine, in which case the engine will need to come out. If you want to rebuild or re-seal and refresh the short block the engine will need to come out. And if you go for an engine swap the engine will need to come out too. It's not difficult to remove a Series engine. With a hoist, a decent set of tools and a 6 pack of beer it take about two hours.
Put it on some ramps to get a bit of space. It is designed to be worked on in the middle of nowhere with a few hand tools.
I uploaded the manuals.
Workshop manual, see section A0 for the details on checking out the pump. Starts on page 74 of the PDF: http://alre.club/Manuals/Series%202%20Workshop%20Manual.pdf
Parts Catalog: http://alre.club/Manuals/Series%202%20&%202A%20Parts%20Catalogue.pdf
QuoteTo remove - Operation A0/2
1. Drain the oil and remove sump.
2. Slacken the locknut securing oil pressure adjusting screw, then remove screw, washer spring, plunger and ball (which may remain in the pump and can be removed when the pump complete is withdrawn).
3. Remove the pump locating screw.
4. Withdraw the pump, leaving the drive shaft in position.
5. If necessary, withdraw the oil pump drive shaft.
Ok, this is another thread that went a bit sideways again.
1. Your 1958 engine was siezed, but you freed the stuck rings, and it ran for awhile and now it's running poorly.
2. Your bores and/or rings are shot. I'm not a scientist, but going from siezed pistons to moving ones does not make a new engine. You need a complete strip down, inspection, and rebuild. A 1958 engine needs the attention of a full rebuild.
3. I used Curtis at Extreme, and was very pleased with the work, and the reasonable turnaround. He disassembled and cleaned two four cylinder 2.5 NA part-engines, head and accessories were already stripped by me. One of the engines, the better of the two, was checked, bored to round, rehoned and the top of the deck was milled. It was checked with supplied pistons and rings. New supplied prefinished bearings were installed in the 12J. I note that noone has fitted prefinished bearings in 11J yet without trouble, another independent machinist is also having trouble with that one. For Curtis' work, he charged me $685.
All remaining parts were returned disassembled in boxes, as I had asked. You could likely receive a lower bill for completely stripping a block and sending it in. One of mine had very black oil and bad bores I didn't want the mess of full disassembly on that one.
As I expect you're likely not a mechanic, or have a half dozen engines laying about, needing to triage them, I would suggest you have Curtis rebuild the engine as well as do the machine work. This seems to be around $2K in labour for a four cylinder, and is money well spent.
" It should be really simple, any machine shop should be able to handle it ". In practice, I didn't find this to be the case. Larger shops were much more comfortable handling GM, Ford, Chrysler engines that they do every day. Communication from one of the bigger shops was a problem. They seemed more interested in moving the job out then in giving any advice or opinion. I tried a much smaller machine shop familiar with tractor engines, but health problems were a factor for him.
A good machinist is as hard to find as a good mechanic.
As he has said power and compression are good so there is no cause to need a rebuild with the information available. An engine being stuck is not a death sentence.
Look into the cause of the the oil pressure problem and he should be good to go.
If a rebuild did happen, any local machine shop would be fine for the little machine work required. There is no need to send the engine to Calgary.
You need to be cautious how to proceed with a 2.0 as many parts are not produced and NOS parts are very costly.
The motor still runs great. Electric pump primes it and it will fire right up and idle fine just loses the oil pressure. Im liking the idea of just checking the oil pump and seeing if its wore out. $2000 seems like a lot more than id like to spend on this motor considering i bought the whole vehicle for less than that but ill keep it in mind. Ive had the head off a couple times now and i thimk i can get more parts for the 2.0 from a guy in england that i bought a full gasket kit from. Shipping is a pain though
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More armchair mechanicing ;)
"The motor was siezed when i got it and i got it freed up with good compression across the cylinders but they are scarred and i cant keep oil pressure for more than 20min or so"
To me, again, a layman, siezed engine + scarred cylinders = worn bores and low oil pressure. There seems to be a habit to expect anything Land Rover to be uniquely robust, and a simple or cheap fix. This was probably true during the manufacturer's warranty when the engine was still new. Strip the engine, measure the bores, and tell me I'm wrong.
But it doesnt look like they changed the design of the pump much so if imagine i could source that in north america
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Bore damage has nothing to do with oil pressure. All very simple engines.
Unfortunately the 2.0 and 2.25 pump are quite different. 2.25 pumps are cheap and easy to get. 2.0 pump parts are pricey. Hopefully you can work it out with used parts.
Alright well i have quite a few spare oil pump parts for the 2.0. Ill have to see what the best ones are i guess. Did a quick search and thought they were similar
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Is there many people running the engines in alberta in the group?
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The 2.25 was a whole new engine designed by Land Rover. The 2.0 was from the Rover cars. I don't think there is any crossover. The 2.0 was used in the Series 1s and the Series 1 groups are the ones with all the knowledge. Matt has a couple and I'm sure can help point you in the right direction if needed.
Right on. Well ill see what all i can find. I was thinking maybe some one may have a good used one that i could toss in for now but i may have the parts too
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With a compression ratio of just 6.8:1 you can get away with pretty amazing cylinder wall damage/out of round. If you are getting reasonable power, half decent compression and acceptable oil consumption/blow by I wouldn't worry about it. Frankly, unless there had been a rebuild in the last few years I'd be suprised if there wasn't bore wear and scoring.
As Red90 posted, these are essentially pre-war Rover car engines from the early 30's redesigned to serve in areas of the world where fuel, oil and servicing were not up to any kind standards. They were built to survive this and are nowhere near as delicate as modern engines.
Once you get the oil pump off you want to look closely for wear and/damage on the high pressure side of the pump. Then look for a reason why? It could just be the darn thing is nearly 60 years old and worn out. Or it could have suffered from starvation or cavitation.
If you need parts I may have a spare pump in my horde.
If it loses pressure only after it heats up, I'm curious as to how that could be the pump (?). I'm curious as to what it could be at all, but it has to be something obviously and I'm interested.
Jim
Quote from: Already a Rover on March 30, 2016, 02:50 PM
If it loses pressure only after it heats up, I'm curious as to how that could be the pump (?). I'm curious as to what it could be at all, but it has to be something obviously and I'm interested.
Jim
The oil viscosity drops as the oil heats up. If the pump is worn, it will internally bypass more and more as the oil thins out. It could also be worn bearings, but based on all of the information so far provided, the pump makes the most sense. Heavily worn bearings should give other indications of problems.
Ah, the oil heats-up. I was thinking of parts expanding, but to go from 60 to 0 psi....
So another way to test this would be to use thicker oil? My guess is there would be some improvement regardless of the cause, so maybe it wouldn't tell you much.
Oh, my aching brain....
Malcolm may have 2.0 parts - he has a number of Rover cars.
Jim
I was wondering....would parts from the Rover cars fit here? Maybe there is a parts supply along this line ???
The pump parts are available new still. They are just a bit pricey as it is genuine only. He needs to first find the problems, then we could help with finding a solution.
yeah....sounds like in interesting situation and well worth following. Keep up that great and helpful chatter guys! ;)
Still a little sick but im going at it today guys
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So right off the bat this thing looks terrible. Some one has been in here before. It has a pile of scars and hairline cracks
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This is what ive got for bits and pieces. Ill see what looks best
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Measure the clearances as per the manual. That is what is important. If the clearances are fine on the current pump, you would need to look for another cause.
I dont understand what the previous guy was accomplishing with the brass plug and drilling the new hole. As for clearances it looks like im at the max for all of them
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That is strange. So, if I understand correctly, two oil outlets have been plugged and a new one added up higher. Very weird. You might need to ask on the Series 1 forums and see if someone would know why this might be done. Or, just put in your other one, if it has acceptable clearances, and "carefully" see if your oil pressure is good.
Have a good look while it is out that the pressure relief if sealing.
Can you tell if the wear on the pump is the housing or the gears or both?
I think its both. My spare housing pieces look better so i plan to use them and i miss matched gears. The powered gear it steal while the idler is aluminium. You can see the scaring in my original housing
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Connsidering now that i could pop the brass plug back out and fill in the other hole. Ill have to do a further investigation to make sure something else hasnt been plugged or changed
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I'll just add that the Series 1 club is the best place to get more info.
http://www.lrsoc.com/
Had just found them and registered. Ill ask them too
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Per the book, make sure you prime the pump with a drill and a bucket of oil before install. Also lets you check it is working.
Sorry, I haven't been paying attention to this thread for a while. For some reason I was looking in the technical section?
Anyway. What I think you have there is a modified shaft from an early Series 1 2.0L and one gear from a late Series 1 2.0L and the other gear and original Series 2 2.0L housing. Back in those days mechanical specifications were changed almost monthly and it's possible that a previous owner has just "made it work" with whatever other LR parts he had available. A very common occupancy in the UK back when these older LR were not worth very much. There are certainly different early and late Series I and Series II oil pumps for the IOE 2.0L. Impressive it makes any flow and pressure at all really.
So what now? Well you need to ascertaine exactly what you have for an engine serial number and go from there. If it is a non original block or an engine made up from parts of other engines then honestly you may be better off with your original plan of swapping in a nice 2.25L with a Series III synchromesh gearbox. Parts for the 2.25L are easier to come by and much cheaper.
Trying to make a reliable, useable engine from mixed matched parts is not going to add any value and just cause frustration. Is it as desirable as the original 2.0L? No. But that may be long gone already.
Identify what you can and try to find out if it is original to the vehicle. Perhaps it's just the pump that has been messed with? Or perhaps it's more? The answers to this will lead you to the decision you need to make. Repair or Replace.
My 2c.