NEW HIP

[Matt H]

A hybrid system ensures the lions share of the best medical staff end up in the 'for profit' care facilities reducing the effectiveness of the others. Therefore exacerbating the current inequality in society.

Sorry, this argument holds no water. You're ALREADY losing top talent to other jurisdictions for higher pay under the Canadian system.

Yes. I understand this and I do take your point on the economic migration of Dr's and the question of tax.  And I understand the rich will always pay for preferential treatment regardless of what nation they are citizens of and will go wherever they need to go to get it.  But in my view that's exactly why a hybrid system exacerbates the situation.

I'm also not holding up the Canadian (or British for that matter) system as ideal either.

As long as this stays the same any state run health care system will always be sub par. Because there will be no determined effort to fix it.

I can't think of one area where a 'pay for privilege' option has ever helped those who could not afford it?

[Trevor]

Yes. I understand this and I do take your point on the economic migration of Dr's and the question of tax.  And I understand the rich will always pay for preferential treatment regardless of what nation they are citizens of and will go wherever they need to go to get it.  But in my view that's exactly why a hybrid system exacerbates the situation.

<snip>
I can't think of one area where a 'pay for privilege' option has ever helped those who could not afford it?

I'm a bit confused with these statements Matt. On the one hand we acknowledge that we lose "something" with the migration of doctors to other juristictions. This something is wages/jobs, tax revenue, and just a more general feedback into overall GDP (in the simplests sense...more people earning = more people spending).

That is very singificant because those are all feedbacks into the economy generally, and therefore empower the government with more options wrt their programs. Enhancement of the public sector medical system being one of them.

One other thing I should note, is I don't agree with the premise that the best talent migrates to the private system. Talent definitely does migrate generally, but it is not necessarily the "best". There are draws to the public system as well. Private care formats are much more competitive, driven, and demanding upon their members. Not all doctors want to take that on.

Moreover, the wage disparity is not similar to what we would see in other private/public market comparissons. An MD under a public system still makes a wage that is very good, and very comfortable. Canada is certainly an example of that as our physician wages are well above the norm compared to other publically funded models. We are already in a very good position to start a transition to a full 2 - tier system imo.

[Matt H]

That makes total sense if you subscribe to the so called "trickle down economics" theory. The effectiveness of which could be debated without end.
But it's a big step to go from the general revenue earned from Dr's taxes to overall improvements in health care. There is no way to be sure that extra revenue will not be fritted away on another pet project of our illustrious leader?

The average GP doesn't make as much as you may think considering their education and the responsibility they have.

Frankly I'm not entirely sure what the best way forward with health care is but being from a very working class background I'm hugely sceptical of anything that is based on pay for privilege. .

[Trevor]

That makes total sense if you subscribe to the so called "trickle down economics" theory. The effectiveness of which could be debated without end.
But it's a big step to go from the general revenue earned from Dr's taxes to overall improvements in health care. There is no way to be sure that extra revenue will not be fritted away on another pet project of our illustrious leader?

The average GP doesn't make as much as you may think considering their education and the responsibility they have.

Frankly I'm not entirely sure what the best way forward with health care is but being from a very working class background I'm hugely sceptical of anything that is based on pay for privilege. .

Hehe, yes,  the notion governments will spend additional revenues wisely is not and an argument I would try to make.

The key thing to remember is every Albertan currently lives in, and pays to support, a 2-tier system. The second tier is south of the border and not under Alberta's benefit. But it is there, and it is accessed by those that can afford it. It's just a crappy model for Alberta as the only benefit it sees is the queue jumping/unloading to the US. But Alberta loses on the migration of doctors and revenues/taxes, which is really unfortunate. 

But alas, we've hammered this one pretty well. Time to agree to disagree.

[roverwanabe]

Got past stage 2.  Meeting with my Surgeon. About 5 more months, if all other tests go OK

[Trevor]

That's great news, congrats! It's nice to hear that things are moving ahead for you.

I had a private MRI done a few weeks back as the one booked for me through the health system was not going to happen until July 2017. So, with the MRI out of the way I am now at the stage of waiting to see the ortho and lock down a date for surgery. I'm not too sure what that timeline is right now, although I should know in a few weeks.

[roverwanabe]

Trevor.
I wa referred for screening about Jan 2016.
Screened at MSK Clinic on Mar 20
Met with Surgeon on Dec 9
They told me on Dec 9 that it would be about 5 months.
So, from first going on the list on Mar 20 wait time for me is about 14 months.
Research back a year ago indicated 16 to 24 months.
They also said the number is floating and subject to many variables, understandably.

[Trevor]

As I've delved into the various surgical options the newer method, anterior hip replacement, seems to be the best option as it is not nearly as invasive. However one does have to meet certain requirements for it to be an option.

I'm not sure how many doctors here are doing it though (if any) as it's an advanced procedure and takes a pretty skilled set of hands, and specialized (read: expensive) tools. But if you still have the opportunity, you may want to ask your doctor about it as an option. 

[roverwanabe]

Re:  Ronald Regan..  "Reganonomics". feed the horse enough oats, a little bit trickles out the other end for the sparrow.

[Trevor]

Re:  Ronald Regan..  "Reganonomics". feed the horse enough oats, a little bit trickles out the other end for the sparrow.

Yup, Reaganomics was a big old fail, largely because they didn't do what the econmic plan laid out...

What was supposed to happen?

-- Reduce size of government (all good, less of that is always better, governments = institutionalized waste)
-- Reduce government regulation and social spending (all good, because it means you need to take less money from your populace via taxes)
-- Tax cuts across the board (ditto, gut the government and the social waste, put money back in the hands of the individual where it belongs)
-- Increase military spending (was rather important at the time because, well, Reagans military build-up was a big part of why the US won the Cold War

What did Reaganomics actually do? Well, none of the above except for the last one. Size of government actually increased, taxes increased, and goverment reg's basically stayed neutral overall (decreased in some areas, increased in others.

Tis too bad, the economic aspects of the original model was a winner. It's all about execution though, and on that it was a big old fail.

[roverwanabe]

Countries with higher taxes, higher social spending on Education, Health Care, Social Programs, etc., usually have a higher standard of living. (Norway, Finland, Sweden for example).

Tax Cuts usually benefit the richest and the ensuing cuts to programs hurt the most vulnerable.

I prefer a society where I would get looked after if something happened and therefore don't mind paying to make sure those less fortunate than myself are looked after.  That is what Canada is, or should be about, not a culture of Greed and Selfishness.

Right now it should be very obvious as to the importance of Education.  Cuts to education could lead to someone like Donald Trump getting elected

[Trevor]

Cuts to education could lead to someone like Donald Trump getting elected

Wish we were that lucky :->

[roverwanabe]

High taxes really hurt that POS.  I would hope there are not enough Deplorables in Canada to elect something like that.  If there are, then we are like America, beyond hope.

[Trevor]

High taxes really hurt that POS.  I would hope there are not enough Deplorables in Canada to elect something like that.  If there are, then we are like America, beyond hope.

I'm a Deplorable, and damn proud of it! Hitlary and her band of felons and murders got bitchslaped...good times! :)

P.S. As an aside, I don't believe we've met yet, but when we do be sure to introduce yourself in person. I don't have to agree with peoples views, and I respect their right to an opinion. Since this has decended into name calling, lets leave that until we're talking face to face.

We're done here though.

Good luck with your surgery.