Alberta Land Rover Enthusiasts Club Forum
General => Technical Discussions => Topic started by: Trevor on June 20, 2017, 09:50 AM
Folks, looking for some feedback please.
The 4.6L in my '04 D2 is starting to show signs of the dreaded cylinder lining drop woes. It's not there yet, but I think it is likely got a lot fewer miles in her ahead than she has behind. I'm actually not too upset about that because, well, that stock LR 4.6L engine is a real pos with as many bad qualities as good. So the silver lining is its eventual demise offers up other opportunities. ;D
Options I'm pondering, in order of preference: (note, "preference" means what I'd like...not necessarily what is will prove the most practical...or practical at all even).
1) 302 or 350 Chev swap: I would really like to get a small block chev in there as they are such a great, rock solid motor and much easier to support here. I have done some digging but have come across only a few threads on this conversion. I REALLY want to get away from the LR 4.6 if possible, but I am also not looking to re-invent the wheel either. I'm dubious how practical this option would be. If you've come across any vendors supporting these swaps, or detailed threads on the conversion, please share. I am at the info gather stage and welcome all you've got.
2) Turner (or equivalent) crate engine: Turner appears to have solved some of the larger issues with the 4.6 with their performance crate engines. I would lean toward them in part because of their reputation. I also have no experience with other remanufacturing vendors offering similar products. If you have some experience with either Turner or other options, it would be great to hear that feedback.
3) Local engine rebuild: I really would prefer not to go this path, and if it was the only option I would probably consider just ditching the Disco entirely and find something else for a Moab rig. It's not that I don't have confidence in local shop options such as Bert, as I absolutely do. It's simply that I would prefer not to end up with the same old 4.6 with the same old inherent design flaws. There's a reason Olds dropped this setup decades ago, so I'd rather not put more lipstick on this pig.
If you have other options/ideas, I welcome them.
Worth noting I am not entertaining a TD5 conversion (or any diesel option). I am set on keeping this as a gasoline driven vehicle.
There is a guy in the US that makes all of the parts needed to install Gen 4 LS engines with 6L80E transmissions into Defenders. He has it to a mostly bolt in level, although it is still a lot of work by an experienced person. He states 80 to 100 hours labour by an experienced shop. He has just been doing it on the side, but recently stated he is going to do it full time.
That said, a Discovery 2 offer more challenges as it has a body control module with most things outside of the engine running on a bus. If you want all of the things outside of the engine to continue working properly, you will need an expert that knows how to customize modern bused vehicle electronics. The BCM gets very upset when the engine disappears. Most people that do Disco 2 conversions live with all of those things broken. Maybe someone has done it properly if you look around.
Quote from: Red90 on June 20, 2017, 10:26 AM
There is a guy in the US that makes all of the parts needed to install Gen 4 LS engines with 6L80E transmissions into Defenders. He has it to a mostly bolt in level, although it is still a lot of work by an experienced person. He states 80 to 100 hours labour by an experienced shop. He has just been doing it on the side, but recently stated he is going to do it full time.
That said, a Discovery 2 offer more challenges as it has a body control module with most things outside of the engine running on a bus. If you want all of the things outside of the engine to continue working properly, you will need an expert that knows how to customize modern bused vehicle electronics. The BCM gets very upset when the engine disappears. Most people that do Disco 2 conversions live with all of those things broken. Maybe someone has done it properly if you look around.
I'm largely ok with the D2 "outside of engine" stuff not working properly. For the most part it just gets in the way now, or is a pending headache in the waiting. I have often though of simply going to a D1, in part because of the absence of a lot of the external electronics. But at this point I've got enough invested in the D2 drive train that is not interchangeable, I am steering away from that as a first option. That's partly what was drawing me towards a chev swap...it gets rid of a lot of those outside the engine items.
The Gen4 LS swap would be very cool, but that would also require a lot more drive train upgrades as that's a whole new level of torque/HP. I am inclined to stay clear of that at this point as I kinda like where the rig is now from the transmission back.
Quote from: Trevor on June 20, 2017, 10:37 AM
I'm largely ok with the D2 "outside of engine" stuff not working properly. For the most part it just gets in the way now, or is a pending headache in the waiting. I have often though of simply going to a D1, in part because of the absence of a lot of the external electronics. But at this point I've got enough invested in the D2 drive train that is not interchangeable, I am steering away from that as a first option. That's partly what was drawing me towards a chev swap...it gets rid of a lot of those outside the engine items.
The Gen4 LS swap would be very cool, but that would also require a lot more drive train upgrades as that's a whole new level of torque/HP. I am inclined to stay clear of that at this point as I kinda like where the rig is now from the transmission back.
You say you would be okay...but I'm saying no gauges, no idiot lights, no ABS, no traction control, nothing would work. It is all computer driven. Removing the current engine in any form will kill all of that unless it is reprogrammed or fooled. It is doable, but you need someone that knows how to do it. It is no different if it is an LS or and old 350 with a carb. Both can be completely standalone.
The drivetrain you have would be fine with the engine. Hundreds of conversions have been done on Defenders, Disco 1s and RRCs. I'm confused on the power comment as you say a 350 is okay but not an LS. Both will have the same power and torque. The big positive to the newer engine is you can have cylinder deactivation allowing good fuel consumption along with the power.
Yes, no problem losing gauges and idiot lights, etc. I'm running aftermarket gauges for several items now, adding more in would be ok. Traction control isn't necessary either as I'm locked front and rear. If anything it just gets in the way.
On the LS, I thought it was quite a bit beefier than that. A stock 302 chev will be a bit more than the 4.6, 350 would be roughly 60-80 HP more I believe and about 40-50ft/lb torque. I thought the LS was kicking out more than that. If it isn't, then that is certainly a candidate. I will dig into that one some more.
Power levels can be whatever you want really. I "assume" you are only talking about new or rebuilt or low mileage engines as you want reliable. A Gen4 327 truck engine runs like 320 hp, 335 lb-ft. You have to try not to get that from a 350. The 4.6 Disco 2 engine runs 300 lb-ft. The GM engines are just breathing better, getting more top end, not more peak torque, unless you went into a 6.2 or a supercharger.
You can always try and control your right foot as well. ;D Okay, maybe not.
Quote from: Red90 on June 20, 2017, 11:39 AM
You can always try and control your right foot as well. ;D Okay, maybe not.
Heheh, lol, yes, lets keep this project within the bounds of reality! :)
In all seriousness though, I find I really don't need a lot more HP when down in Moab. The stock HP ranges for the small block chevs, Turner 4.6L etc are pretty good. Much more HP will just increase the likelihood of blowing stuff apart. That slick rock is so sticky.
What makes you think the current engine is on its last legs?
I think there is a guy on this forum that is running diesel in what once was a V8 D2. I've never seen it, but apparently it's running/driving?
D2 engine swaps are tricky because, as has been already covered by Red90, the electronics. And tricky means either something that costs big bucks to make work properly or will never work properly and both will usually be worth less than a stock unit when your finished.
A radical engine swap in late model vehicle will never make much sense financially because of the costs involved. Meaning, if the only reason you are married to the D2 platform is the $ value of all the goodies at what point does the cost of the swap exceed that?
A 4.6L can be built up for more power and reliability. Plus, it's not as heavy as an old school small block and everything will still work properly. You should talk to Norman. Apparently the D2 he built can give a Porsche a run for its money!
One final thought. A custom engine installation means custom parts and maybe two or three guys in the world who know exactly how your D2 is put together and where, or even if, any spares could be found....
Quote from: Matt H on June 20, 2017, 12:57 PM
What makes you think the current engine is on its last legs?
I think there is a guy on this forum that is running diesel in what once was a V8 D2. I've never seen it, but apparently it's running/driving?
D2 engine swaps are tricky because, as has been already covered by Red90, the electronics. And tricky means either something that costs big bucks to make work properly or will never work properly and both will usually be worth less than a stock unit when your finished.
A radical engine swap in late model vehicle will never make much sense financially because of the costs involved. Meaning, if the only reason you are married to the D2 platform is the $ value of all the goodies at what point does the cost of the swap exceed that?
A 4.6L can be built up for more power and reliability. Plus, it's not as heavy as an old school small block and everything will still work properly. You should talk to Norman. Apparently the D2 he built can give a Porsche a run for its money!
One final thought. A custom engine installation means custom parts and maybe two or three guys in the world who know exactly how your D2 is put together and where, or even if, any spares could be found....
A big part of the reason I was asking for feedback on the swap was because, for it to be a reasonable option, I am looking for some examples of it being done effectively. If it becomes to big of a job, then I would move to the second option. The chev small blocks are familiar to me, rock solid, and are also super easy to get parts for. That adds a lot for what I do with the vehicle and is why I want to chew through it as an option. Supporting a Land Rover in Moab can be frustrating at times.
As an example, the last 2 spring visits to Moab I have had to replace the expansion tank while there. That's not something you can find used, or new, in the area (I do take a used one now though!). Its US$300 including shipping from Salt Lake City Land Rover. I've bought 2, for $600 (Yay!). I can replace the entire cooling system for a chev 350 in Moab from NAPA, CarQuest, Ryley's etc from under $200....including a rad. Point being, if it turned out to be a reasonably practical swap to do up front, it's assured to be a MUCH more practical application over the long term to maintain in Moab. And that's a factor here because this vehicle is pretty much Moab only these days.
The Turner (or whoever) 4.6 sits at #2 because it is pretty straightforward. One always has to worry about quality when getting something like that from an oversea's supplier, but many of these vendors, like Turner, seem to have pretty good reputations. I will have a chat with Norm too regarding his D2, that's a good call.
Regarding my existing engine, and why I think its going, is I am starting to see some combustion gas in the cooling fluid, and that fluid will discolor. It only happen now if the engine gets very hot, which I have helped minimize for the time being with some extra cooling, and simply never running the AC when out in the desert.
Quote from: Trevor on June 20, 2017, 02:37 PM
it's assured to be a MUCH more practical application over the long term to maintain in Moab. And that's a factor here because this vehicle is pretty much Moab only these days.
Except, you would have a custom installation, with a lot of custom parts that have not been tested. It is nice to think the engine will be easy to find parts for, but the cooling system will be custom, with oddball hoses as well as much more. You might be able to design your way to a more reliable and easy to repair total system, but more likely than not, it will be more trouble.
Example... Kirk's 88. He spent 10 years researching and building it. His primary goal was being bulletproof. He has a Chevy 302. The first four trips out, maybe five, he broke down. Lots of little things needed testing and redesigning, just to get it through a weekend.
Take time and money to solve the problems you know. For instance, it would be simple to have a metal expansion tank built that will be the last thing standing. It is beyond my comprehension why someone has not convinced Allisport to make one for your application...
Yes, very valid points John.
I view the conversion path much like i view my friend Jeep TJ running an AMC 401. Everything off that build is either Jeep or one of the Big 3. It's a Frankenstein, but nothing is a custom part that cannot be found at NAPA. Now, the important thing is to remember what is from what when you are going for replacement parts. But as long as you have that road map, it works really well.
For me, that's the only way I would entertain a port over. That's why I was curious if anyone has seen such a thing with a D2. I have not been able to find it, and I'm guessing it isn't out there. But for my purposes, it can't be a concoction of custom built parts or a first time attempt at doing a port over. I am just not interested in that level of exploration, trial and error, etc. Option #2 would be the better path if that was where I was at.
Hmm. Busted expansion tanks and combustion gas in the coolant? Could just be a simple head gasket job. While the heads are off you can check the liners but I don't believe slipped liners and porous blocks are as big a deal as the inter web makes them out to be. More likely is the head gasket at the rear cylinders is beginning to let go when it gets hot.
So you are looking at a domestic V8 engine swap using existing factory parts? That's a tall order and I've also never heard of such. Old Jeeps, Blazers and Broncos ok, it's all been done before but unless you want a TD5 Diesel it's gonna be charting new territory. I'd love to see it done though.
I had my 4.0 rebuilt at 300k km. It was a slip cylinder liner. The boiling coolant was a clear sign that it failed.
The performance after 25000km is still solid and to spec as per original engine. I do have the new Turner liners in it to prevent slipping. The workmanship was as solid if not better than an overseas outfit. I know of another Disco that has a Turner engine in it as well. The advantage of the local shop was identifying the extra items that would fail if not treated outside of the rebuilt itself. Cost wise it was no different.
As for modifications, I would love to see more tourque availability under low RPMs in a modified engine. Once you start reengineering the engine, then you need some more technical knowledge than a mechanic can offer locally. European automotive engineers are well trained in doing such tasks and analysis. That's where you can start looking if you want to change specs.
As for the Chevy block vs the LR block, I like keeping my car in its original specs. Easier to trouble shoot with the Rav than a custom mixed car.
My two cents.
Boiling coolant doesn't automatically mean there is a problem with the liner. Maybe one time in a hundred (if that) it's not a head gasket.
It's an old 1960's Buick push rod V8. A quick google search reveals just what is possible with these units. There is nothing magical or exotic about these things. Even the EFI is the same basic Bosch system everyone used.
Compared to newer engines with variable valve timing etc they are dirt simple. No need to fork out for high dollar "specialists".
Quote from: Matt H on June 20, 2017, 04:15 PM
Hmm. Busted expansion tanks and combustion gas in the coolant? Could just be a simple head gasket job. While the heads are off you can check the liners but I don't believe slipped liners and porous blocks are as big a deal as the inter web makes them out to be. More likely is the head gasket at the rear cylinders is beginning to let go when it gets hot.
Yes, first step will be a closer look to determine what actually is going on. It's got some other work required as well (oil pump, and a nasty ticking to be sorted out). This discussion is so I can have some options in my hip pocket, should they be needed.
Quote from: B-Red on June 20, 2017, 06:43 PM
I had my 4.0 rebuilt at 300k km. It was a slip cylinder liner. The boiling coolant was a clear sign that it failed.
The performance after 25000km is still solid and to spec as per original engine. I do have the new Turner liners in it to prevent slipping. The workmanship was as solid if not better than an overseas outfit. I know of another Disco that has a Turner engine in it as well. The advantage of the local shop was identifying the extra items that would fail if not treated outside of the rebuilt itself. Cost wise it was no different.
Great info Emad, thanks!
And Bert was looking for someone to do a remap of the engine with ;)
David Menard has the top hat rebuild as well.
Trailhead 4x4 out of Cleveland is a name that's popped up a few times. Supposedly they are doing LS 5.3 swaps into D2's with the end result being a fully functioning D2 platform with no idiot light issues.
No idea whether this is true or not, or any details at all for that matter. I'm going to give them a call next week and see what I can find out. Certainly sounds interesting.
That would be a nice set up if they have it all figured out.
A bunch of pictures here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1296827950342292.1073741831.569492196409208&type=1&l=55deabc3dc
Great link John, I had not visited their Facebook pace.
They appear to be onto something. Looking forward to chatting with them.
Quote from: Red90 on June 22, 2017, 12:28 PM
A bunch of pictures here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1296827950342292.1073741831.569492196409208&type=1&l=55deabc3dc
Very interesting.
I finally was able to link up with these guys and get some info.
The LS conversion is typically done via a rebuilt engine. Basically what they are doing is running the L33 (as an example) off the D2 computer as is. They do not reprogram anything, they just make some tweaks to the engine. Accordingly they typically use a rebuilt version III or IV motor as they are replacing the cam with their own specially built unit. You can use a new crate motor if you like but it's largely a waste because you cannot capitalize on any of the the newer IV functions simply because the D2 computer doesn't have that capability.
The "new" parts are predominantly mounting brackets and fitment items, or nothing that moves/spins/etc other than a single pulley and of course the special cam. Many engine control D2 parts are maintained such as the alternator and injection system. They actually do provide a list of what is old LR, what is new Chevy, and what is fabricated.
Cost is in the $12,500.00 ballpark which includes removing the old engine and installing the new, assuming you want a completely rebuilt L33 as a reference point. They will do the old cast iron blocks or the new aluminum ones, whatever you prefer.
They are going to be down in Moab mid-September with their local club and one of their converted trucks, so I might take a run down for a week and check it out.
I'm nearly done my LM7 swap. Been working on it for a while now.
I'm using a LM7, C5 corvette bellhousong, flywheel and pressure plate, an adaptor that goes between the bell housing and an R380 which simply bolts up to the LT230. I'm running electric fans on an aluminum shroud which are controlled by the LS ECU. I have all my parts on file so I can recreate them if any one is interested in a kit. I'm sorting out engine mounts and accessories right now. So far all I have to relocate is the power steering pump. I will have ABS, Traction Control, HDC functioning when I'm done too. Iv been thinking about a build thread for a while now and i'll probably put one together when the truck is done.
You can Email me for pictures or if you have questions.
That sounds like a very interesting project and along similar lines to what I'm contemplating. I do want to maintain the automatic mind you, but other than that, lots of similarities. If you have the time, a built thread would be great to see! And I may indeed ping you for some details down the road.
i did too, I didnt want to use the ZF auto box because there simply isnt enough aftermarket support if i needed to improve it, and the controller for it was costly to begin with. the 4L80E would add a lot of length the the drive line and it would require a massaged floor pan or a low sitting drive line, youd also have the modify your drive shafts, transmission mounts, buy an adapter from Australia (not too much of an issue), and add a Vehicle Speed Sensor for the LS harness to shift the transmission, you may also need a 1" body lift if you want the factory cross members. So i figured if i spent the money on an r380, and went over it and went this route it would be the cleanest method in regards to drive line placement. Its also the quickest method for me to finish the project. I know of a couple LS swapped discos that went the GM automatic route and i wanted that but i wanted clean and simple more.
this way i used factory mounts for the transmission and transfer case. it helped with the alignment of the engine for building the front engine mounts and drive shaft angles.
the auto box would be nice for off-roading and daily driving and the aftermarket for them is very abundant which is very very appealing
i have a temperature sensor in the manual transmission so i can monitor for an alignment issue with my adapter, the R380 bolt patern is built off center which was a bit annoying and took a couple templates to sort out but im certain the measurements are sorted out. This is the easiest swap iv been apart of, so far you can use all factory LS parts to make it work. the exhaust Y pipe will obviously be custom and same with the engine mounts but those are the biggest hurdles of the project thus far so IMO its very straight forward.
LS advantages:
-70% HP increase, 30% torque increase (those are rough numbers but not a guess either).
-fuel economy increase
-RELIABILITY ;D ;D ;D which is the main reason im doing the conversion.
-on the shelf parts availability in nearly every small town
-used engines are $500-$8,500 depending on how swanky you want to get.
LS Disadvantages:
-labour and thinking cap required which isnt that bad. still in for less money than replacing a ruined 4.0L v8
I'm currently looking for a LS "car" intake manifold if any one knows of one. LS1 from a camaro or trans-am.
A 6L80E is a better choice. Works well with the engine. Adapters are well designed for it. There are no space or clearance issues (the 4L80E has clearance issues). Using the R380 or ZF boxes and you would need to be very careful with your right foot.
Did you ever take Norman's D2 for spin Trevor? Boy that old girl can pick up her skirt and move! An almost endless torque curve.
If the big reason for a swap is reliability, what are your thoughts on TD5 swap? The last real Land Rover engine and designed especially with the D2 in mind. They are a proven reliable engine. It can be 100% factory parts swap.
As I'm sure you are aware, Larger inter coolers and performance fuel mapping etc can boost power and torque significantly while keeping it all in the realms of durability.
They are also becoming more and more available thanks to epic rust issues taking out the rear chassis on otherwise good vehicles. A great many were also automatics. I noticed when we were over in the UK last month lots of cheap MOT failed D2's for sale. And when I say cheap, I mean 500 quid cheap!
For the parts cost, labour and ball ache of a custom swap I wonder if a guy could ship a complete TD5 Disco and swap the oily bits and various wiring harnesses and ecu's then call it good?
I fully expect this swap to replace the 200/300tdi swaps of the past as those engines are beginning to dry up and the TD5's are everywhere.
Just a thought.
Pretty good idea Matt. I had pondered the TD5's briefly, but did not delve into in any detail as I had my mind set on a gasser. However you make some pretty good points regarding the TD5's. I thought the ECU's swap was a real problem with those though, that was part of the reason I didn't delve to deeply into it. Might be worth another more detailed look though.
I've seen Johnathan in his quite a lot, and it does indeed get-up and move. A performance rebuild is an option, and if I went that way I'd likely just do it here....it is just an old Oldsmobile engine after all. That path is still very much alive on my list.
So far as I'm aware the only ECU issues I've heard of is when intergrating a Td5 engine to a non D2 or pre Td5 Defender? If you shipped the entire vehicle you could use the donors engine (obviously), transmission, ecu's, wiring harness, sensors, dash cluster etc so as far as the power train is aware nothing is different? Also fuel and emissions piping/components, ancillaries and Disco2/Td5 specific bracketry and trim could all be used.
A huge benefit to having the entire donor vehicle is being able to do side by side comparisons and seeing just how the factory installed the various components and how they should be fitted to the project vehicle. I learned that lesson when doing factory options & engine swaps on classic cars & trucks. All kinds of fasteners, clips and brackets can be harvested taking advantage of the factory engineering.
All of this is obviously more involved than a straight performance rebuild of the original engine or even a 4.6L Rover V8. But it would be easier than a full custom swap and you would be able to use the factory manuals and ordering parts would be straight forward.
This is not apples to apples, but I thought I would toss a link to this. It is a truthful listing of the cost for this one guy to do an LS swap to his Defender.
http://www.defendersource.com/forum/f47/d90-ls3-6l80-conversion-104698-14.html#post1919468009
Quote
My total cost for parts is $17,000
I also sold the original 19J/LT77/230 and other parts for $1200, so out of pocket cost was:
$15,800
It was totally my labor, so no additional cost for labor. I also didn't list consumables or tools required like welding wire, gas, snap ring pliers etc., but I did add a line for miscellaneous items like fasteners, clamps, clips, etc. and I included a new fuel tank and trans cooler which all came from eBay. This includes bulk purchases like an assortment of anodized hose spring clamps and the 400 piece assorted flange bolt/nut kit. Both of these were extremely helpful, but I have a lot of extras.
Another important point. I included the total cost of new gauges and other parts not really required for the pure swap, but you can pick these out of the list below if desired.